Another new Brexit thread

[west didsblue]

You know what my "argument" and motivations were.
Against membership of an EU that was slowly and increasingly becoming more federalised, for the UK to then leave EU, apply for EFTA. You know this, yet continually make arguments against my position insisting it's "what I voted for", despite the numerous times i've corrected you.

Thank you for confirming your ignorance. :)

Still prattling on about EFTA.
That ship also sailed a long time ago.

 

[mcfc1632]

And your lack of understanding people's points and opinions to twist them into an argument and discussion they weren't even having appears to be yours!

You are aware that as an independent nation we can create said FTA's with those "other nations" at will, yes? Except this time on our terms.

Once you understand the technique he and other employ - it becomes all too obvious and easy to spot doesn't it.

 

[BobKowalski]

And your lack of understanding people's points and opinions to twist them into an argument and discussion they weren't even having appears to be yours!

You are aware that as an independent nation we can create said FTA's with those "other nations" at will, yes? Except this time on our terms.

‘At will’? No. We can endeavour to do so, try very hard in fact but we cannot command them into existence and they will not be on our terms. They will be on terms that our leverage allows. With respect to USA it will largely be on their terms. The same will apply to Japan who will take advantage of our weakness in our desperation to get deals ‘as quickly as possible’. You also need to factor in the complication of NI’s new status and the devolved competences of Scotland and Wales both of whom will want different things and to protect the industries they are responsible for like Agriculture which is one of the more contentious issues in any trade deal.

Welcome to the real world. Are you guys ready because judging by some of the posts on here the ignorance is truly astonishing.

 

[Metal Biker]

Once you understand the technique he and other employ - it becomes all too obvious and easy to spot doesn't it.

They aren't on here to discuss the developments of the negotiations or post-brexit future.

They just want to vent their anger against those who voted to leave, inventing arguments for them and attacking them with them. As if anyone even cares anymore about pigeonholing leave voters or those who voted to remain. The argument has moved on for so many people, yet there are still some who want to have the 2016 fight all over again.

 

[Metal Biker]

‘At will’? No. We can endeavour to do so, try very hard in fact but we cannot command them into existence and they will not be on our terms. They will be on terms that our leverage allows. With respect to USA it will largely be on their terms. The same will apply to Japan who will take advantage of our weakness in our desperation to get deals ‘as quickly as possible’. You also need to factor in the complication of NI’s new status and the devolved competences of Scotland and Wales both of whom will want different things and to protect the industries they are responsible for like Agriculture which is one of the more contentious issues in any trade deal.

Welcome to the real world. Are you guys ready because judging by some of the posts on here the ignorance is truly astonishing.

There's that word again! :)

We'll just have to see, won't we, what happens. We're not having the negotiations, on this football forum. You lamenting over choices and past decisions doesn't make for debate about current situations. You want your "Look what you have done!" moment and for people to listen to you. Well we have listened. By Odin have we listened!

 

[Gabriel]

So good job we had the chance and took it to get out in 2016

I remember saying that it was a surprise to be given the chance - it would certainly never come again.

So many things could have happened to see us locked into the EU project for good - we have had to have been lucky several times, but hopefully will see it through now that we are in the home straight

The UK had a vote to join in 1973, it had a vote to leave in 2016, so it's not impossible it will have another vote at some point in the future. Not saying it should, just pointing out the historical pattern.

The UK has left now so the home straight is behind it. Now, it needs to resolve what it can do to improve the lives of its citizens but in a world that is markedly different from that envisioned last December.

 

[mcfc1632]

They aren't on here to discuss the developments of the negotiations or post-brexit future.

They just want to vent their anger against those who voted to leave, inventing arguments for them and attacking them with them. As if anyone even cares anymore about pigeonholing leave voters or those who voted to remain. The argument has moved on for so many people, yet there are still some who want to have the 2016 fight all over again.

And it is no coincidence that the arrival of some posters signals the commencement of insults etc.

It seems that if they arrive and see some real discussion going on - take note @Saddleworth2 they need to distract the thread into arguments to close it down

 

[Metal Biker]

The UK had a vote to join in 1973, it had a vote to leave in 2016, so it's not impossible it will have another vote at some point in the future. Not saying it should, just pointing out the historical pattern.

The UK has left now so the home straight is behind it. Now, it needs to resolve what it can do to improve the lives of its citizens but in a world that is markedly different from that envisioned last December.

It will be a much harder sell, though to rejoin, considering the opinions of the British Public on the bloc.

Joining the EEC had some positive arguments to support it. Joining this current EU and it's excessive demands...?

 

[BobKowalski]

We are all doomed hey Bob?? Lol So so glad I dont live in your world. You are clearly entitled to your opinion but im also so glad that you are repeatedly prooved wrong with every event. Have a good day.

You do live in my world. You live in the real world where we have a shiny new customs border in the Irish Sea.

As for what we have asked for in the UK/EU trade talks that is documented fact not opinion. You should try reading the UK proposal document. You might learn something. Or you can continue posting ill-informed nonsense. It’s your choice.

 

[Metal Biker]

And it is no coincidence that the arrival of some posters signals the commencement of insults etc.

It seems that if they arrive and see some real discussion going on - take note @Saddleworth2 they need to distract the thread into arguments to close it down

Correct, I see this thread as some sort of therapy for their bitter anger and outrage at democracy being fulfilled and it not going the way they wanted, and us engaging with them makes us their enablers.

 

[BobKowalski]

There's that word again! :)

We'll just have to see, won't we, what happens. We're not having the negotiations, on this football forum. You lamenting over choices and past decisions doesn't make for debate about current situations. You want your "Look what you have done!" moment and for people to listen to you. Well we have listened. By Odin have we listened!

I am debating the current situation and also correcting your errors. Honestly I should get paid the amount of teaching I do on here.

 

[mcfc1632]

The UK had a vote to join in 1973, it had a vote to leave in 2016, so it's not impossible it will have another vote at some point in the future. Not saying it should, just pointing out the historical pattern.

The UK has left now so the home straight is behind it. Now, it needs to resolve what it can do to improve the lives of its citizens but in a world that is markedly different from that envisioned last December.

Largely agree, but I have a different view of when and where the home straight is entered.

If we had left with a deal like May was putting in place - we have never left

If we have left but the accept the controls that the EU is seeking to 'impose' - we have only left to become a vassal state - I know that people do not like the use of that term but I feel it is apt.

If that occurs - and referring to my herd analogy from earlier - and as the EU will be able to ensure that an independent UK cannot flourish, the EU can be confident of a future vote to re-join - on their terms and that it will only be a matter of time before a vote is taken

 

[Metal Biker]

I am debating the current situation and also correcting your errors. Honestly I should get paid the amount of teaching I do on here.

By misrepresenting what people say, incorrectly inventing arguments others haven't made and arguing from that position?

 

[Gabriel]

It will be a much harder sell, though to rejoin, considering the opinions of the British Public on the bloc.

Joining the EEC had some positive arguments to support it. Joining this current EU and it's excessive demands...?

The UK has just left, so I doubt it would be looking to rejoin anytime soon if at all. I was simply pointing out that it would and should always have that choice. There will always be positive and negative arguments for joining/leaving any Union, and enough people saw it as unattractive. It may become more attractive or less so to future generations, we cannot know, but we should always be able to rub along.

 

[Metal Biker]

The UK has just left, so I doubt it would be looking to rejoin anytime soon if at all. I was simply pointing out that it would and should always have that choice. There will always be positive and negative arguments for joining/leaving any Union, and enough people saw it as unattractive. It may become more attractive or less so to future generations, we cannot know, but we should always be able to rub along.

As should any democracy, I was also pointing out that the difference between us joining the EEC in '73 and the current EU and what it's become is like chalk and cheese. Had the EU admitted it was beginning to go too far, agreed that a major reform to it's purpose and future existance needed to be addressed, placing more emphasis on the importance of sovereign governments and less on the Euro Parliament, i'd have been more inclined to continue membership.

For now though, the aspect of trade and business should be our only relationship with the EU and the rest of Europe, IMO, with emphasis placed on co-operation and not an integration of politics. That for me is what killed any association I wanted with the EU.

 

[Saddleworth2]

TBF - given that response I assume that you are stating that you personally and based on the current conditions/risks etc, would wish to be part of a fully federal United States of Europe rather than an independent UK.

If so - that means you, just like Bob, are at least openly admitting that a) to stay in the EU will likely lead to the UK in a United States of Europe and b) that on balance you prefer that outcome.

I have no issue with anyone that holds that view, but...…………. (see end of the post)

But, there have been so many 1000s of posts on these threads from Remainers screaming that the Leavers are wrong to consider that inevitable integration is the destination that will result from staying with the EU project.

This means that so many Remainers on here have - for 4 years - either:

• not ever understood the truth of where sticking with the EU will take UK citizens or
• couldn't be arsed to make the effort to fond out because they were duped into voting Remain by the lies of the Remain campaign - and cannot bring themselves to change their tribal allegiance

Also - indeed you do not need to: "..... have a vision for what you want the UK to look like in 2, 5, 10, 20 years and then decide what political scenario is most able to deliver that. "

You just need to be able and/or willing to assess where the EU membership will steer the herd over the next years and what the EU will look like in 2, 5, 10, 20 years and then decide whether you wish to be tethered within that collective.

If you make the effort - it is not hard to see where the EU is going and indeed, as you have recently discovered, that the EU simply must make the journey to full federalism if it is to survive. The EU clearly face an existential crisis and full federalism is the only hope of survival.

I and a great many other Leavers did do that assessment and want no part of the EU's future model - we want to break free from the docility of the main herd and seek new pastures to graze.

And, BTW, if people like me have absolutely no issue with people like Bob and (perhaps) yourself making a conscious decision to opt for membership of the EU superstate over the UK independent state - can you try to explain for me why there are so many on here that take extreme exception to myself and others consciously choosing to opt for membership of an independent UK over the EU superstate?

You do need to try and envisage how an independent U.K. will look in the future. You cannot say “I don’t like the look of all that integration” without having a scenario in your head to compare it with. After all it may well not be an independent U.K. in 5 years time but an independent England.

 

[BobKowalski]

By misrepresenting what people say, incorrectly inventing arguments others haven't made and arguing from that position?

No.

This is the way it works. You say something factually wrong or just plain stupid. I correct the factual error or point out why you are being stupid. You then respond with (insert random babble) and accuse me and others of (insert blathering nonsense). I go make a cup of tea.

We are now at the making tea part of the conversation.

 

[hgblue]

The UK has just left, so I doubt it would be looking to rejoin anytime soon if at all. I was simply pointing out that it would and should always have that choice. There will always be positive and negative arguments for joining/leaving any Union, and enough people saw it as unattractive. It may become more attractive or less so to future generations, we cannot know, but we should always be able to rub along.

That’s fair enough, I’ve always maintained that I’m pro European but anti EU, and despite what the likes of BK may say the two things are not mutually exclusive. It’s not beyond the realms of possibility that the EU doesn’t survive and if that happens and it is replaced with a European Community of nation states, I could see myself voting to be a part of that.

 

[Churchlawtonblue]

You do live in my world. You live in the real world where we have a shiny new customs border in the Irish Sea.

As for what we have asked for in the UK/EU trade talks that is documented fact not opinion. You should try reading the UK proposal document. You might learn something. Or you can continue posting ill-informed nonsense. It’s your choice.

You dont get it do you. I know more about the real world and how things happen than you thats for certain. You're best staying in your little world of doom and denial.

 

[Metal Biker]

No.

This is the way it works. You say something factually wrong or just plain stupid. I correct the factual error or point out why you are being stupid. You then respond with (insert random babble) and accuse me and others of (insert blathering nonsense). I go make a cup of tea.

We are now at the making tea part of the conversation.

No.

I give my opinion on something EU related. You interpret as me stating a fact about the EU. You then respond in an attempt to "correct me" on something I already know (i just happen not to agree with it, morally) and then state my "ignorance" is thwarting debate.

I smirk, find a meme, which pisses you off even further (presumably because it made you spill your tea)

Note that any of these exchanges there's been no debate about the progress of the negotiations, it's just you attempting to play the "i'm smarter than you on the EU" card (as you do with everyone) and me stating I simply don't care? Forget being a teacher, you should be an MEP. ;)

Who's up for some more debate, lads! I'm sure we can talk about how i'm against federalism as a concept means i'm "ignorant" about the inner workings of the EU!