Another new Brexit thread

[mcfc1632]

It's remarkable how much time I can make you waste by a bit of skim reading and focusing on a bit of your nonsense. But I've not read a word of that.

I bet it had nothing about fish.

What a liar - just like @west didsblue you desperately wish to say that you do not read posts but you are fooling nobody other than yourselves. The way you guys respond betray that you have read them

My - but you are so needy and desperate

Anyway - thanks for admitting that your only purpose is to be destructive on the thread and seek to distract the posts and points of others by responding to their posts having not read them - but only want to post something totally irrelevant to them.

That admission was not really necessary - you are well known for twisting the words others have posted. It is why people, Leavers, generally do not respond to you - which so obviously has left you seriously butt-hurt.

There are quite a few posts from you recently seeking to 'get involved' - get a response. You nowadays come across as the desperate kin in the class begging to get the teacher's attention - "Me sir, please sir...."

Anyway - you can consider this little exchange - with me providing a few replies - as a bonus to savour.

 

[Vic]

What a liar - just like @west didsblue you desperately wish to say that you do not read posts but you are fooling nobody other than yourselves. The way you guys respond betray that you have read them

My - but you are so needy and desperate

Anyway - thanks for admitting that your only purpose is to be destructive on the thread and seek to distract the posts and points of others by responding to their posts having not read them - but only want to post something totally irrelevant to them.

That admission was not really necessary - you are well known for twisting the words others have posted. It is why people, Leavers, generally do not respond to you - which so obviously has left you seriously butt-hurt.

There are quite a few posts from you recently seeking to 'get involved' - get a response. You nowadays come across as the desperate kin in the class begging to get the teacher's attention - "Me sir, please sir...."

Anyway - you can consider this little exchange - with me providing a few replies - as a bonus to savour.

And..... not a thing about fish or anything else about Brexit you don't want to discuss.

 

[mcfc1632]

Anyway - in a bid to break free of the pack - let's consider something that is concerning at the start of the 'last' round of negotiations.

Lots of commentary about the prospect of the UK compromising on the 'red lines' this morning and the £ has rallied as a result.

Worrying stuff - the UK just needs to hold its nerve.

Another worry for me is the prospect of Johnson getting directly involved in the negotiations - it is rumoured that he is going to have a face to face summit with von der Leyen. My concerns about that would be summed up by this commentary that I read:

".....The last time he got directly involved in negotiations he succeeded in splitting off Northern Ireland from the mainland UK; losing his nerve he agreed to a Versailles-type of annexation of part of the UK. He could do so again: he has a genuine tendency to ‘bottle it’ and reveal himself as a balloon of hot air, easily punctured. This really is a danger, especially given the remainer Tory MPs and ministers urging a deal, however bad – in effect a bridge back to rejoin."

Best, IMO, that he just keeps the fuck out of things and leaves it to Frost.

 

[Shaelumstash]

Anyway - in a bid to break free of the pack - let's consider something that is concerning at the start of the 'last' round of negotiations.

Lots of commentary about the prospect of the UK compromising on the 'red lines' this morning and the £ has rallied as a result.

Worrying stuff - the UK just needs to hold its nerve.

Another worry for me is the prospect of Johnson getting directly involved in the negotiations - it is rumoured that he is going to have a face to face summit with von der Leyen. My concerns about that would be summed up by this commentary that I read:

".....The last time he got directly involved in negotiations he succeeded in splitting off Northern Ireland from the mainland UK; losing his nerve he agreed to a Versailles-type of annexation of part of the UK. He could do so again: he has a genuine tendency to ‘bottle it’ and reveal himself as a balloon of hot air, easily punctured. This really is a danger, especially given the remainer Tory MPs and ministers urging a deal, however bad – in effect a bridge back to rejoin."

Best, IMO, that he just keeps the fuck out of things and leaves it to Frost.

You looking forward to “taking back control” from the unelected elite? ;-)

 

[carlosthejackal]

Can’t wait for all those lovely trade deals with the psychopathic racist rapist from across the Atlantic

 

[BobKowalski]

Anyway - in a bid to break free of the pack - let's consider something that is concerning at the start of the 'last' round of negotiations.

Lots of commentary about the prospect of the UK compromising on the 'red lines' this morning and the £ has rallied as a result.

Worrying stuff - the UK just needs to hold its nerve.

Another worry for me is the prospect of Johnson getting directly involved in the negotiations - it is rumoured that he is going to have a face to face summit with von der Leyen. My concerns about that would be summed up by this commentary that I read:

".....The last time he got directly involved in negotiations he succeeded in splitting off Northern Ireland from the mainland UK; losing his nerve he agreed to a Versailles-type of annexation of part of the UK. He could do so again: he has a genuine tendency to ‘bottle it’ and reveal himself as a balloon of hot air, easily punctured. This really is a danger, especially given the remainer Tory MPs and ministers urging a deal, however bad – in effect a bridge back to rejoin."

Best, IMO, that he just keeps the fuck out of things and leaves it to Frost.

Frost is the monkey, not the organ grinder. Johnson will ultimately decide.

Some background from Gutteridge (Sun):

‘Michel Barnier expects the UK to make the first move towards a middle ground this week believing No 10 wants to avoid the narrative talks are failing. His team told EU diplomats they anticipate more engagement on key sticking points. More engagement means they expect the UK to start working with them on how their demands can be moulded into compromises, rather than just outright rejecting them. The talks so far have basically been both sides setting out their positions and calling the other's unacceptable.

That may not sound very constructive, but both teams say it has been useful. Negotiators repeatedly laying down positions, asking questions about and clarifying them, and even rowing about them in public helps them get to grips with what's really important to the other side. But now that process has gone as far as it can. Both sides know they're going to have to move towards each other, but who goes first? To this end Barnier and EU trade chief Phil Hogan issued come get me pleas to UK last week with the clear message 'we'll compromise if you do'.

You can argue showing their hand in this way was, in fact, the first move. Significantly Barnier actually used the word compromise. Brexit watchers will recall how dismissive he was when asked about compromises in the withdrawal phase. This is a whole different negotiation. So will the British bite? Unsurprisingly UK officials reject the accusation they haven't engaged with the EU's positions on LPF, governance, fisheries etc. They say it's Brussels that has refused to engage with their proposals and is just sticking to its unprecedented demands.

But there are small signs of wiggle room. Contrary to some opinion, and the impression the EU often gives, the UK has accepted there will be LPF provisions. There are in the EU-Canada deal after all. What they dispute is how far-reaching and restrictive the EU's proposals are. UK accepts non-regression but rejects commitments that would tie its hands on future standards. Much of the public row on LPF has focussed on EU's out there state aid demands which have always looked untenable. EU climbdown on that could create space for UK to up its offer.

Similarly on fisheries it's clear Barnier wants to compromise, even though he's under pressure from coastal states not to. Compromise looks like EU accepting worse access terms, but in return the UK acknowledging EU states need more certainty than annual negotiations provide. As for governance? UK stresses it's not after a Swiss-style model and wants to keep the 'suite' of separate agreements as low as possible, at around 6-8. It argues the overarching governance model proposed by the EU is only suitable for countries looking to join the bloc.

This issue comes down to trust and may be the trickiest of the Big 3. UK opposes EU plan because it allows cross-retaliation - breaches in one area could be hit with sanctions in another. EU sees UK's approach as an attempt to cherry-pick membership benefits sector-by-sector. So things may look bad with both sides blaming each other for slowing down progress. But privately officials feel actually things are about where they expected, and it's too early yet for real compromise. That will only happen if/when time pressure creates political impetus.’

 

[mcfc1632]

You looking forward to “taking back control” from the unelected elite? ;-)

100% - Just hoping that the UK holds its nerve and sees this week and the coming months through to get us clear of EU controls

When others - not aiming this at you - refer to the 'unelected elite' it is intended sarcastically, perhaps as a reference to Cummings and others, but I find that a pretty silly and ill-thought through comparison, don't you?

 

[mcfc1632]

Frost is the monkey, not the organ grinder. Johnson will ultimately decide.

Some background from Gutteridge (Sun):

‘Michel Barnier expects the UK to make the first move towards a middle ground this week believing No 10 wants to avoid the narrative talks are failing. His team told EU diplomats they anticipate more engagement on key sticking points. More engagement means they expect the UK to start working with them on how their demands can be moulded into compromises, rather than just outright rejecting them. The talks so far have basically been both sides setting out their positions and calling the other's unacceptable.

That may not sound very constructive, but both teams say it has been useful. Negotiators repeatedly laying down positions, asking questions about and clarifying them, and even rowing about them in public helps them get to grips with what's really important to the other side. But now that process has gone as far as it can. Both sides know they're going to have to move towards each other, but who goes first? To this end Barnier and EU trade chief Phil Hogan issued come get me pleas to UK last week with the clear message 'we'll compromise if you do'.

You can argue showing their hand in this way was, in fact, the first move. Significantly Barnier actually used the word compromise. Brexit watchers will recall how dismissive he was when asked about compromises in the withdrawal phase. This is a whole different negotiation. So will the British bite? Unsurprisingly UK officials reject the accusation they haven't engaged with the EU's positions on LPF, governance, fisheries etc. They say it's Brussels that has refused to engage with their proposals and is just sticking to its unprecedented demands.

But there are small signs of wiggle room. Contrary to some opinion, and the impression the EU often gives, the UK has accepted there will be LPF provisions. There are in the EU-Canada deal after all. What they dispute is how far-reaching and restrictive the EU's proposals are. UK accepts non-regression but rejects commitments that would tie its hands on future standards. Much of the public row on LPF has focussed on EU's out there state aid demands which have always looked untenable. EU climbdown on that could create space for UK to up its offer.

Similarly on fisheries it's clear Barnier wants to compromise, even though he's under pressure from coastal states not to. Compromise looks like EU accepting worse access terms, but in return the UK acknowledging EU states need more certainty than annual negotiations provide. As for governance? UK stresses it's not after a Swiss-style model and wants to keep the 'suite' of separate agreements as low as possible, at around 6-8. It argues the overarching governance model proposed by the EU is only suitable for countries looking to join the bloc.

This issue comes down to trust and may be the trickiest of the Big 3. UK opposes EU plan because it allows cross-retaliation - breaches in one area could be hit with sanctions in another. EU sees UK's approach as an attempt to cherry-pick membership benefits sector-by-sector. So things may look bad with both sides blaming each other for slowing down progress. But privately officials feel actually things are about where they expected, and it's too early yet for real compromise. That will only happen if/when time pressure creates political impetus.’

Interesting stuff, for completeness though - given that the article that you have quoted as comments such as:

"Both sides know they're going to have to move towards each other, but who goes first? To this end Barnier and EU trade chief Phil Hogan issued come get me pleas to UK last week with the clear message 'we'll compromise if you do'.

and:

".....Much of the public row on LPF has focussed on EU's out there state aid demands which have always looked untenable. EU climbdown on that could create space for UK to up its offer."

It might have been appropriate for you to note something along the lines of:

"We will not see movement from the EU unless and until they are faced with the prospect of a viable walk-away option – and the political will to use it”

This was always true - and has been proven to be months ago. But I am pleased to see, as you are quoting this article, that you are now also gaining an understaning.

 

[Shaelumstash]

100% - Just hoping that the UK holds its nerve and sees this week and the coming months through to get us clear of EU controls

When others - not aiming this at you - refer to the 'unelected elite' it is intended sarcastically, perhaps as a reference to Cummings and others, but I find that a pretty silly and ill-thought through comparison, don't you?

100% - Just hoping that the UK holds its nerve and sees this week and the coming months through to get us clear of EU controls

When others - not aiming this at you - refer to the 'unelected elite' it is intended sarcastically, perhaps as a reference to Cummings and others, but I find that a pretty silly and ill-thought through comparison, don't you?

What are your thoughts on the House of Lords?

 

[west didsblue]

And..... not a thing about fish or anything else about Brexit you don't want to discuss.

All he wants to do is blow smoke up David Frost’s arse and pretend that he’s always thought Johnson was an idiot when actually he couldn’t contain his glee last year when Johnson surrendered NI to the EU to secure the WA.

 

[mcfc1632]

What are your thoughts on the House of Lords?

Happy to share them - they are very clear

I will later when back from golf - I notice that you did not answer my question - the one at the end of that post:

"When others - not aiming this at you - refer to the 'unelected elite' it is intended sarcastically, perhaps as a reference to Cummings and others, but I find that a pretty silly and ill-thought through comparison, don't you? "

 

[Ifwecouldjust.......]

I see that the Spanish and Greeks have blocked people travelling from the UK entering the country.

but but .... I thought that whilst in the Eu we couldn't control our borders?

 

[BobKowalski]

Interesting stuff, for completeness though - given that the article that you have quoted as comments such as:

"Both sides know they're going to have to move towards each other, but who goes first? To this end Barnier and EU trade chief Phil Hogan issued come get me pleas to UK last week with the clear message 'we'll compromise if you do'.

and:

".....Much of the public row on LPF has focussed on EU's out there state aid demands which have always looked untenable. EU climbdown on that could create space for UK to up its offer."

It might have been appropriate for you to note something along the lines of:

"We will not see movement from the EU unless and until they are faced with the prospect of a viable walk-away option – and the political will to use it”

This was always true - and has been proven to be months ago. But I am pleased to see, as you are quoting this article, that you are now also gaining an understaning.

I am familiar with the concept of reading.

Both sides will compromise. Barnier will happily compromise on fish as long as they get something of substance in return. The EU will water down their extreme hardline on state aid provisions if the UK moves towards them on LPF. You will note we will accept LPF provisions. The UK are desperate for something on Services so need to offer a carrot or two of their own. Same is true on tariffs as lorry queues at Dover and disrupted food supply chains are not something we want. Ditto road haulage.

In the end, just as we did in phase 1, we will compromise due to time pressure. The EU will allow us to claim victory and then we will spend a decade trying to implement the concessions we made along with trying to negotiate sector by sector, especially on Services, trying to get back to where we are now.

This all of course we don’t completely fuck up on the pandemic and find we are pretty much toast in the autumn anyway.

I mean we are currently fucking up the reopening Parliament because some daft Brexiteer twat thinks we need to so my expectation of the Govt doing anything other than fucking up, followed by a last minute concession is somewhere between zero and nil. If we get out of this without selling off anymore sovereign territory it will be a miracle.

 

[Gareth Barry Conlon]

I am familiar with the concept of reading.

Both sides will compromise. Barnier will happily compromise on fish as long as they get something of substance in return. The EU will water down their extreme hardline on state aid provisions if the UK moves towards them on LPF. You will note we will accept LPF provisions. The UK are desperate for something on Services so need to offer a carrot or two of their own. Same is true on tariffs as lorry queues at Dover and disrupted food supply chains are not something we want. Ditto road haulage.

In the end, just as we did in phase 1, we will compromise due to time pressure. The EU will allow us to claim victory and then we will spend a decade trying to implement the concessions we made along with trying to negotiate sector by sector, especially on Services, trying to get back to where we are now.

This all of course we don’t completely fuck up on the pandemic and find we are pretty much toast in the autumn anyway.

I mean we are currently fucking up the reopening Parliament because some daft Brexiteer twat thinks we need to so my expectation of the Govt doing anything other than fucking up, followed by a last minute concession is somewhere between zero and nil. If we get out of this without selling off anymore sovereign territory it will be a miracle.

Not sure myself, once we accept LPF provisions and a role for the ECJ in trade then you have entered the realm of soft brexit. The zelots will go mad and the moderates will think we could have done this with T May 2 years ago. It opens the door to a genuine free trade agreement but it closes the door on all the bollox that ERG types love - sovereignty and British people catching British fish in British waters...

I cant see the Tories doing it piecemeal as they lose their talking points about what they wont accept but unless they do it across the board they don't get the full benefit. Its a slippery slope

 

[BlueAnorak]

Anyway - in a bid to break free of the pack - let's consider something that is concerning at the start of the 'last' round of negotiations.

Lots of commentary about the prospect of the UK compromising on the 'red lines' this morning and the £ has rallied as a result.

Worrying stuff - the UK just needs to hold its nerve.

Another worry for me is the prospect of Johnson getting directly involved in the negotiations - it is rumoured that he is going to have a face to face summit with von der Leyen. My concerns about that would be summed up by this commentary that I read:

".....The last time he got directly involved in negotiations he succeeded in splitting off Northern Ireland from the mainland UK; losing his nerve he agreed to a Versailles-type of annexation of part of the UK. He could do so again: he has a genuine tendency to ‘bottle it’ and reveal himself as a balloon of hot air, easily punctured. This really is a danger, especially given the remainer Tory MPs and ministers urging a deal, however bad – in effect a bridge back to rejoin."

Best, IMO, that he just keeps the fuck out of things and leaves it to Frost.

Just Remainers continually trying to keep us attached.
Transition ends on the 31st of December.
No deal will be made that surrenders UK sovereignty to the EU. Tory MPs know it will be the end for them if such a deal is made.

 

[west didsblue]

Just Remainers continually trying to keep us attached.
Transition ends on the 31st of December.
No deal will be made that surrenders UK sovereignty to the EU. Tory MPs know it will be the end for them if such a deal is made.

That ship’s sailed. We’ve already surrendered NI in the WA.

 

[BobKowalski]

Not sure myself, once we accept LPF provisions and a role for the ECJ in trade then you have entered the realm of soft brexit. The zelots will go mad and the moderates will think we could have done this with T May 2 years ago. It opens the door to a genuine free trade agreement but it closes the door on all the bollox that ERG types love - sovereignty and British people catching British fish in British waters...

I cant see the Tories doing it piecemeal as they lose their talking points about what they wont accept but unless they do it across the board they don't get the full benefit. Its a slippery slope

My own view is that we will agree some basic framework that keeps the ports and supply chains open and tariffs at a minimum. There will be LPF provisions and we come out ahead on fish. All the complex stuff, Services, Data sharing, Security, will be booted into the next decade which is how long it will take to sort it out.

The pandemic is the wild card. Europe seems to have a greater handle on it than us and if we get hit with a second wave and they don’t then our position will be even weaker.

Personally I think we are totally fucked, but we will see.

 

[BobKowalski]

Just Remainers continually trying to keep us attached.
Transition ends on the 31st of December.
No deal will be made that surrenders UK sovereignty to the EU. Tory MPs know it will be the end for them if such a deal is made.

Northern Ireland says, ‘Hello.’

The new customs border dividing UK sovereign territory wants to know if you are free on Friday for a chat.

Did we make the EU put up a new customs border in their territory? Asking for a friend.

 

[Gareth Barry Conlon]

My own view is that we will agree some basic framework that keeps the ports and supply chains open and tariffs at a minimum. There will be LPF provisions and we come out ahead on fish. All the complex stuff, Services, Data sharing, Security, will be booted into the next decade which is how long it will take to sort it out.

The pandemic is the wild card. Europe seems to have a greater handle on it than us and if we get hit with a second wave and they don’t then our position will be even weaker.

Personally I think we are totally fucked, but we will see.

Lol at my post above and the one that followed it. This is the problem they have. There is an expectation that will never be met. They have well and truly corned themselves. No deal corner.

 

[Fred_Quimby]

I was a remainer but now hope that we get some deals that will be beneficial to this country. However after seeing how this shower of sh1t have handled CV19 I am not hopeful. This lot couldn’t deal a hand at cards.