George Floyd murder | Clashes between US police and protestors

[Nellies left peg]

No doubt but the one reason why Churchill isn't looked on kindly by the left is due to his views on the creation of Israel.

That's why they are quick to call him racist but completely ignore the fact that he fought and resisted the greatest racist threat the world has ever seen.

The one thing Churchill never stood for was likening the views on the far-right that is for sure.

If we had not defeated Hitler I wonder what civil rights some of us would have today. Only those with blond hair and blue eyes. It would be far worse than the poor state we are in

 

[Mike Cledford]

I was thinking more about his tactics of weaponising race during recent votes.

Which one? Cummings or Morgan? Both seem capable of it?

 

[mcfc1632]

I understand that mate but premeditating the removal of Churchill’s statue isn’t the way to go at all.

He’s got a mixed past, with some very immoral actions and views but ultimately, the world would have been horrific if it wasn’t for him, the lives he saved from taking a stand shouldn’t be underestimated.

Even the likes of O’Brien and Galloway, on the left, are positive towards Churchill.

The problem is, these new extreme protesters, not the general number, more the minority of political groups that whip it up, they only look at people in black and white (no pun intended) and ignore the grey areas and complexities of major historical figures.

When seeing your previous post with the FB or Twitter clips - I was thinking - is the fella actually committing an incitement offence?

 

[Tim of the Oak]

I was thinking of Cummings because his strategy had millions of people coming out with bullshit about how they had never been allowed to discuss immigration before. I don’t know why you think I like Morgan. I’ve not forgotten how he risked British soldiers lives by printing fake torture pictures.

 

[bert38]

How so? you lamented

"And then one wonders why all the ACAB signs and brutality claims? "

My top part was a reply to that, ACAB became prominent in the 70s/80s in this country when the police force was heavy handed and partially militarised to combat protests.

The rest was my experience of police indifference to minor crimes through no fault of their own I might ad, which has led to a lack of respect for them fr9m some in society.

I have no issues with the police I have family previously in the force and RUC, but I also know, as a football fan a few over zelous officers on an away day can mean unecessary slap round the head as I have had on the way to the swamp or being sectioned 60'd for singing on a train.

Fair enough. Look I retire in October-no more nights, no more dealing with the worst in society, no more getting criticised for trying to do a job. I'll no longer have to defend my corner and I can be free to speak my mind.

 

[urban genie]

No doubt but the one reason why Churchill isn't looked on kindly by the left is due to his views on the creation of Israel.

That's why they are quick to call him racist but completely ignore the fact that he fought and resisted the greatest racist threat the world has ever seen.

The one thing Churchill never stood for was likening the views on the far-right that is for sure.

You do know it was socialist that thought up the creation of israel and most of the early zionists were left wing grouos with an idea of a socialist homeland.


People on the left don't like churchill because of his views on Indians, and also his starving of them killing thousands, also his actions in the boar war and concentration camp opinions also his use of the black and tans in Ireland to murder people.

But churchills legacy is for another topic. Not this one

 

[mexico1970]

Unless China has managed a geographical magic trick and moved id suggest you look again at which superpower is currently spreading its influence and plundering the African continent at an alarming rate.

The protests are aimed just at the west, the protests are now just anti-western protests instigated by the obvious. The message will have become lost on the average person because all they see are disjointed attacks on anything western.

#letsstartariot

This country is at the forefront of equality and has been for some time, it's the wrong part of the world to be smashing up. Some people complaining about Cummins European vacation are now clapping whilst protesters and rioters are spreading this virus chancing a second wave, and if that happens because of this they wont be best liked.

 

[bert38]

I don't disagree.

However, one has to take precautionary measures when dealing with protest. Looking at the USA would have a good indicator.

It was also unprofessional of commanding officers to send volunteers to do what should be a paid job.

Sorry, you missed my point-there were no volunteers. Its voluntary to be trained as a PSU officer.

 

[Tugay One Cup]

I just keep thinking it's an odd thing for leave.eu to go out on a limb for.

What does an organisation about leaving the eu have to do with black equality?

It's an odd one, isn't it?

I guess it was there to soothe Brexiters concerns with being portrayed as racists. Maybe even an attempt to inflate national pride by means of showing Britain's history as one of progression.

That's just a guess though because it is a head scratcher.

 

[urban genie]

Fair enough. Look I retire in October-no more nights, no more dealing with the worst in society, no more getting criticised for trying to do a job. I'll no longer have to defend my corner and I can be free to speak my mind.

As I said I have family members who are coppers, in fact my great grand father is in the police museum I think in a picture.

I believe the police do a good job here, but are hamstrung by the home office bit also do still have faults going back years

 

[Bigga]

Highlighted your hypocrisy

Your 'debate' started with you replying to the other poster when he had been in discussion with someone else - so did you not apply the same question to yourself about why you should be involved?

Or is it OK for you to get all aggressive and shouty with people but then you object to others doing what you do?

As I say - straightforward hypocrisy

And anyway - all I was pointing out was that because of your 'style' it could be understandable why posters do not feel inclined to exchange posters with you

It was a simple question that presented you with the opportunity for some self-reflection and perhaps a change of your 'style' - which may have led to people thinking that you were worth debating with

Just consider it as me seeking to help you

Interesting.

Who else have you noticed I've been "all shouty" with, in this thread? It seems to me, picking out a three letter word in capitals gave you enough reason to launch your attack that you've probably been wanting to do for a while.

How's it going for you so far? did you bother to read the result of my dialogue with the poster? No?

And when, in this thread, have I objected to anyone having their POV as, after all, all I asked was for him to explain a theory he avoided to explain. Others have asked the same. More vehemently than I, I would argue.

Have you challenged them?

Even most of the posters I have had rigorous and hard debate with I have found common ground with in other subjects and I will agree when I agree with them on it.

Thanks for the 'tip', but I don't need to change anything. I consider all things and will concede if I feel I'm wrong or need a wider approach. If anyone doesn't want to debate with me, it's their right and I resolve it with that poster in whatever fashion agreed upon.

So, "help" yourself and let adults resolve their own issues, ducky.

 

[mcfc1632]

It doesn’t you’re right but the true victims have been dead over 2 centuries, so I’m unsure the best way of putting things right, other than making our society as equal as it possibly can be, which I genuinely feel in the UK, we’re not far off at all.

I’ve asked black people specifically and Bigga kindly shared his views on here. From what I’ve heard it seems it’s a lack of representation in top roles and individual racism from the public and a minority of police officers that is the current issues in the UK.

I can’t see a specific law or right that’s discriminatory but happy to hear one if I’ve missed it?

Regarding the top roles point, major businesses have lots of diversity quotas now and are actively trying to diversify their boards and middle management roles. All of my clients do it, as do we.

Regarding then 2nd part, the only way to improve individuals from being racist, is to improve education in this topic.

My view is the best way to make amends is to make life better for people in the present and future.

Re your comment at the end...……...

"...….Regarding then 2nd part, the only way to improve individuals from being racist, is to improve education in this topic. "

Surely this is the current situation - as I would suggest is the evidence that any (certainly at least the vast majority) parents that have a school-aged child would observe

 

[mexico1970]

So, "help" yourself and let adults resolve their own issues, ducky.

Ducky? Not heard that in years, are you from Yaaarkshire bud ;)

 

[Ban-jani]

I don’t think some guy on Twitter with ‘daft’ in his handle and musing about taking down Churchill’s statue is that big a concern. No one is seriously arguing that Churchill, whatever his shortcomings, wasn’t a vital leader at a crucial time.

But it does seem odd to me this concern for statues or the panic over a handful of policemen getting chased off. Yet if the situation was reversed, and heads were being cracked by police, the same people would be cheering them on. People die in police custody, black and white, and have been doing so for years and there are never any prosecutions. We saw from Hillsborough how the police lie and cover up deaths, yet that never seems as important or as concerning as some people misbehaving at a protest.

I agree on the first part, the statues aren’t that important in the grand scheme of things, I just think it shows ignorance.

The second part I disagree, we should be concerned with people bottling and attacking police officers just because they are police officers. The police there likely haven’t ever been racist themselves or contributed to the problem. They’re innocent human beings just like you and I and don’t deserve that aggression towards them.

I appreciate some police officers are racist and people have died at their hands but how many are we actually talking and what percentage of police were involved, that makes it okay to attack police officers at random?

The UK has a tiny problem in this area compared to what happens in the US and whilst I’m on the side of black people against police aggression, I’m not sure applying similar tactics here to the protests there is the right thing to do.

 

[urban genie]

It's an odd one, isn't it?

I guess it was there to soothe Brexiters concerns with being portrayed as racists. Maybe even an attempt to inflate national pride by means of showing Britain's history as one of progression.

That's just a guess though because it is a head scratcher.

Or it's jist that organisers masks slipped and they shown themselves to be far right using the same arguements they do.

And that comment above does not mean I am saying brexiteers are racist or far right but the people who run leave.eu might be

 

[Bigga]

Unless China has managed a geographical magic trick and moved id suggest you look again at which superpower is currently spreading its influence and plundering the African continent at an alarming rate.

NOW, they are!

Filling a void left by the West!

 

[jay_mcfc]

Looks like we can add another link to the Brexit - Boris - Trump chain.

 

[Bigga]

Sorry, you missed my point-there were no volunteers. Its voluntary to be trained as a PSU officer.

Ah, okay.

Am I thinking of... PSOs?

Is that their name...?

 

[mcfc1632]

Interesting.

Who else have you noticed I've been "all shouty" with, in this thread? It seems to me, picking out a three letter word in capitals gave you enough reason to launch your attack that you've probably been wanting to do for a while.

How's it going for you so far? did you bother to read the result of my dialogue with the poster? No?

And when, in this thread, have I objected to anyone having their POV as, after all, all I asked was for him to explain a theory he avoided to explain. Others have asked the same. More vehemently than I, I would argue.

Have you challenged them?

Even most of the posters I have had rigorous and hard debate with I have found common ground with in other subjects and I will agree when I agree with them on it.

Thanks for the 'tip', but I don't need to change anything. I consider all things and will concede if I feel I'm wrong or need a wider approach. If anyone doesn't want to debate with me, it's their right and I resolve it with that poster in whatever fashion agreed upon.

So, "help" yourself and let adults resolve their own issues, ducky.

Sorry - you have exceeded the monthly limit placed on posts to be exchanged with yourself.

Please try again next month

 

[Mike Cledford]

So just because Cummings broke the rules so should everyone else? What sense does that make? Surely protesting in a group of thousands of people will put out t risk more than Cummings did?
Sort of a 'dominic Cummings broke the rules, in response I'm going to put my life at risk, that'll teach 'em' sort of thing.
And certain they will be the ones moaning loudest about 'why is it taking so long for me to be treated here... is it cos I'd black'... at hospital.

Yes. Very anecdotally l found that many people had not heard of Cummings and/or his stupid antics and even more stupid stories and it got passed by word of mouth that Cummings was a good name to use to cover the rule breaking they were already doing such as all gathering together to clap the NHS and to arrange a few beers in the garden over the weekend.

The government keeps going on about following the science. The science of sod's law means that the people who have not observed lockdown are carriers who will not catch it but pass it on to the 'good guys'.