George Floyd murder | Clashes between US police and protestors

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We are in the dark days of BM where posters are trying to justify support for statues of slavers and indignation for the defacement of plinths for those who's promotion isn't all what the populists would have us accept.
Seriously.
Perhaps everything should be pulled down and we should start again.
I'm sure Churchill was a racist. Throughout his life, he made numerous explicit statements on race and his views on the matter contributed to his decisions and actions in the political sphere.
Should his statue stand ?
William Shakespeare wrote several plays which depict. Jews and Blacks in a very negative, stereotypical fashion. Eg. In " The Merchant of Venice".

He has a statue.
 
Seriously.
Perhaps everything should be pulled down and we should start again.
I'm sure Churchill was a racist. Throughout his life, he made numerous explicit statements on race and his views on the matter contributed to his decisions and actions in the political sphere.
Should his statue stand ?
William Shakespeare wrote several plays which depict. Jews and Blacks in a very negative, stereotypical fashion. Eg. In " The Merchant of Venice".

He has a statue.

Wouldn't surprise me if he's next, if we all got to pull down statues or monuments we didn't like it'd be chaos.

Here's one example.

"We have to defund Greater Manchester Police and get rid of that Robert Peel statue."

They want to defund greater Manchester police, it's lunacy is what it is.

https://www.manchestereveningnews.c...gow-protesters-vandalise-robert-peel-18382816
 
So is that what this movement is about then? Reparations for the past? Justice for crimes decades and centuries ago, or is it about current affairs? I'm sure the vast majority of protesters are peaceful, but the % who are a mob are going to cause trouble, and for what? Americas's issue?
Seems to be evolving, trending one might say
 
The comparison has been mentioned many times in the last few days, but imagine there was a statue of Jimmy Savile in his home town of Leeds to celebrate his extensive charitable work. Then he died and it came out that he was a predatory sex offender and had abused lots of children. Would you want that statue taken down, or would you be happy just to have a plaque changed to tell everyone about his crimes? I suspect the former. And the reason is obvious. A public statue is designed to celebrate someone. If you want to keep it as a lesson for future generations, put it in a museum.
I'd want the statue down because he was later found out to be a criminal, he broke the law on numourous occasions, committing the most repugnant of crimes.

Then again you can pull all statues down for me. I don't care.
 
Seriously.
Perhaps everything should be pulled down and we should start again.
I'm sure Churchill was a racist. Throughout his life, he made numerous explicit statements on race and his views on the matter contributed to his decisions and actions in the political sphere.
Should his statue stand ?
William Shakespeare wrote several plays which depict. Jews and Blacks in a very negative, stereotypical fashion. Eg. In " The Merchant of Venice".

He has a statue.

You can actually read the character of Shylock quite sympathetically. I wrote a paper on this topic in grad school :).
 
We are in the dark days of BM where posters are trying to justify support for statues of slavers and indignation for the defacement of plinths for those who's promotion isn't all what the populists would have us accept.


It has become an acceptable norm that instead of being something to be laughed at and considered sociall wrong for defending such things is now a valid stance l.

This clip always sums it up for me




I blame a lot of this on 24hr new services which have to fill so much dead air suddenly fringe cranks and those considered politically redundant were getting air time and invited on and so more extreme views were getting a bigger platform and semi legitimised also social media is twisted to suit a narrative and reach wider auciences.
 
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TBH I've not looked too deeply into the history of this man. For all I know he could have been using slavery as a cover to solely fund the other aspects of his life. Don't know if he left any documented evidence to corroborate this or not but it still doesn't mean that in this day and age he should have a statue on display in a public place. By all means have one in a museum and use it as an educational aid.
Completely agree.
 
Thoughts of some famous black people. Surprised me.




It isn't too supprising with the Morgan freeman, he has long argued that boxing people into catagories and keepign communities seperate is a big factor in racial tension, a lot of interviews when asked he says he doesn't like lables like afro-american and asian-american and everyone should be classed as american and that he hope would lead to more integretion. He has though come out and criticised the police and news for stiring tensions before but again blames that on the lack of these institutions having enough representation or knowledge from black communities.
Denzel is a devout christian who reads the bible, so, as with those clips he focuses a lot not on institutions but about family breakdown as causing the worlds ills.

Anthony mackie makes some valid points everything is a shouting match with lilttle debate anymore and there is a lot that is reactionary without thought.

Would be good to see the full inteviews though rather than just the bits that video wanted.
(I have watched the mackie and lil wayne ones).
 
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Has to be a front runner in the most shakes of the head post.
So you are saying the onus is on black people to change "our" perception of black people?
So Raheem Sterling has to go and meet Yaxley - Lemon and it is Sterling's job to convert him? And if he fails?
Change has to come from within. Us whitey's have to come out onto the streets (peacefully) and say we won't put up with this shit anymore that our neighbours, work colleagues and friends have to endure on a daily basis.
You say they should report it. Report it to who? The police who maybe institutionally racist?. Your boss who unknown to you is a member of the EDL?
Any member of society should not have to say nothing / rise above it to show others that you are better than that.... No one should not be hatied and oppressed because of the colour of their skin.

You say it is "time to put it behind you and move forward...." Should Jewish people put the Holocaust behind them and move forward? If not now, then when?
Oppressed groups can only "move on" when the oppression stops. And us white folk have to take ownership of that and facilitate the change

Saying you are not racist on facebook isn't enough anymore. You have to be anti racist and take action against it when you see it. Saying nothing is allowing it to continue.

One issue I have thought about throughout the lockdown (including before George Floyd’s death) is that when I return to the Etihad (and City away days), hopefully we have moved on from the football lads alliance stuff that seems to have brainwashed a portion of our fans.
 
Seriously.
Perhaps everything should be pulled down and we should start again.
I'm sure Churchill was a racist. Throughout his life, he made numerous explicit statements on race and his views on the matter contributed to his decisions and actions in the political sphere.
Should his statue stand ?
William Shakespeare wrote several plays which depict. Jews and Blacks in a very negative, stereotypical fashion. Eg. In " The Merchant of Venice".

He has a statue.
I think there’s a distinction to be drawn between someone who was (by all accounts) an inveterate racist and someone whose wealth was substantially built off the back of the slave trade.

Slavery, as an act, is collectively the biggest stain on human history within the last millennium in terms of its duration, scale, absence of humanity and affront to common decency (haven’t applied my mind to anything from over 1000 years ago). This stain is accentuated by the modern world we inhabit, which has the descendants of slaves living in the UK in large numbers. People (for example) whose antecedents were stolen from West Africa, taken from their families, to a British colony, in truly appalling conditions, and forced to undertake back-breaking work in order to enrich men like Coulson. By virtue of our enduring colonial dominance of those territories, descendants of those slaves inhabit (inter alia) Bristol today, principally because this country has needed cheap labour over the course of the last 60 years.

So it’s the particular resonance of that narrative that makes the subsistence of that statue deeply uncomfortable at best, and hugely offensive at worst. It’s a particular set of facts which are so egregious, and so inextricably linked to human suffering, that a little historical re-evaluation is appropriate, given the society we inhabit today.

The reality is, that you walk round most great cities in this country, especially ones with significant ports, and many of the magnificent civic buildings that you see were bought and paid for by the exploitation of black people in particular. I don’t think that’s something that white people today should be ashamed of, but neither is it something to celebrate - and what is a statue other than a celebration of someone’s life?

So for me, there is a clear distinction between someone who was racist and someone whose wealth was founded upon slavery, irrespective of any subsequent acts of philanthropy - and that statue should consequently have been moved many years ago.
 
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culture_vs_racism__tomas.jpeg

Power of culture.
 
The BLM protests aren’t causing more division between black and white people, they’re causing more division between racists and anti racists.

Agree to an extent but...

The issues start when the self proclaimed anti racists start to call people who are not racist.....racists. What makes you visibly anti racist? Saying so on social media? Going on a march? Taking a knee? Wearing a face scarf whilst chanting BLM?

Does going about your daily life not doing any of the above but being disgusted by the actions of some police officers and the murder and treatment of black people not count as being anti racist?

We should start making people identify in public so that we can all see who is who perhaps? The racists could be made to wear a badge or maybe branded? We could put them into some sort of ghetto away from us self proclaimed anti racists? Eventually we could add to them and anyone who doesn't agree could also be put there but then im guessing we might have a bit of a problem on our hands and some sort of solution would have to be thought about to finally rid us of these people we dont like.
 
I know we have had a lot of videos with differing opinons but I think in the context of the UK this is a very important and very excellent interview with Akala on his experiences and opinions on the subject.


 
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For anyone who hasn't watched 13th on netflix, do so.

Utterly shocking and heartbreaking documentary that shows how America has literally reinvented slavery and incarcerated millions of black and hispanic people to allow big corporations and business to profit off them and in doing so taken away their democratic voices forever.

Until politically that is ripped up and put right, nothing is going to change sadly.
 
I think class is the bigger issue in this country.

A lot of the activists at these rallies will no doubt be supporters of getting black workers from foreign countries in on the cheap to do low-paid work.

This leads to negative outcomes in relation to whites (many of whom are middle class) in many, but not all, statistical comparisons due to their low earnings that affect the life chances of them and their children and is far more of an influence than race or racism imo.

Honestly not sure where this leap of theory came from!
 
Agree to an extent but...

The issues start when the self proclaimed anti racists start to call people who are not racist.....racists. What makes you visibly anti racist? Saying so on social media? Going on a march? Taking a knee? Wearing a face scarf whilst chanting BLM?

Does going about your daily life not doing any of the above but being disgusted by the actions of some police officers and the murder and treatment of black people not count as being anti racist?

We should start making people identify in public so that we can all see who is who perhaps? The racists could be made to wear a badge or maybe branded? We could put them into some sort of ghetto away from us self proclaimed anti racists? Eventually we could add to them and anyone who doesn't agree could also be put there but then im guessing we might have a bit of a problem on our hands and some sort of solution would have to be thought about to finally rid us of these people we dont like.

A related issue for me is that the activists seem to ignore any positive impact an individual or group of people have had across society, if they have done or said some unpleasant things. I wouldn’t dismiss Churchill because he said some nasty things just like I wouldn't dismiss Doreen Lawrence for what she said about the fire brigade who risked their lives at Genfell.
 
I think there’s a distinction to be drawn between someone who was (by all accounts) an inveterate racist and someone whose wealth was substantially built off the back of the slave trade.

Slavery, as an act, is collectively the biggest stain on human history within the last millennium in terms of its duration, scale, absence of humanity and affront to common decency (haven’t applied my mind to anything from over 1000 years ago). This stain is accentuated by the modern world we inhabit, which has the descendants of slaves living in the UK in large numbers. People (for example) whose antecedents were stolen from West Africa, taken from their families, to a British colony, in truly appalling conditions, and forced to undertake back-breaking work in order to enrich men like Coulson. By virtue of our enduring colonial dominance of those territories, descendants of those slaves inhabit (inter alia) Bristol today, principally because this country has needed cheap labour over the course of the last 60 years.

So it’s the particular resonance of that narrative that makes the subsistence of that statue deeply uncomfortable at best, and hugely offensive at worst. It’s a particular set of facts which are so egregious, and so inextricably linked to human suffering, that a little historical re-evaluation is appropriate, given the society we inhabit today.

The reality is, that you walk round most great cities in this country, especially ones with significant ports, and many of the magnificent civic buildings that you see were bought and paid for by the exploitation of black people in particular. I don’t think that’s something that white people today should be ashamed of, but neither is it something to celebrate - and what is a statue other than a celebration of someone’s life?

So for me, there is a clear distinction between someone who was racist and someone whose wealth was founded upon slavery, irrespective of any subsequent acts of philanthropy - and that statue should consequently have been moved many years ago.

For me the statue should of been pulled down, I can't see how anyone will lose any sleep over it.

When we think of the culture in the UK now, that statue doesn't represent a single jot of it and that past is nothing to honour or celebrate. It's not even erasing history, it's confirming that it is a history we aren't proud of.

I don't agree with mob rule or how it happened but it's a great symbol anyway.
 
For me the statue should of been pulled down, I can't see how anyone will lose any sleep over it.

When we think of the culture in the UK now, that statue doesn't represent a single jot of it and that past is nothing to honour or celebrate. It's not even erasing history, it's confirming that it is a history we aren't proud of.

I don't agree with mob rule or how it happened but it's a great symbol anyway.

Me neither. I spent three years in Bristol and when the Penzance train from Piccadilly dumped me at Bristol, the No.8 bus took me past his statue. Bristol history, like Liverpool's (although it probably wasn't the fault of the latter!) is full of references to the slave trade. The city wasn't built on it. but benefited from it like a lot of British ports. Part and parcel of our history, like it or lump it. British history is awash with periods that are heroic and shameful. I embrace all of them, good or bad - they happened. I can't change them but I do try to learn from them.

Apparently the statue was made in Manchester!
 
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