George Floyd murder | Clashes between US police and protestors

[BobKowalski]

i kinda reluctantly agree with this...makes sense.

Maybe we can stop all the "Lest We Forget" flag wavers too...banging on about wars "we won"...but had absolutely nothing to do with?

Damn that was harsh.

 

[Ban-jani]

I don’t think any British women link modern day Norwegian men to the Norse Vikings who took British women as slaves so that they could copulate (most likely through rape) with them and reproduce in their new nation on Iceland when they had no women and needed children.

Nor do we in the North of England today link modern day people in Normandy in France (or Scandinavians who were actually the Normans) to the genocide of the people in Northern England in the Harrying of the North.

But I also never see it mentioned about how black South Africans treat what we call mixed race South Africans (the black South Africans call them “coloureds”, disown them from their families and segregate them in their own neighbourhoods); the genocide of black Africans who happen not to be Islamic by Islamic black Africans in Darfur; the ethnic war in Angola with one ethnicity of black people being slaughtered because they aren’t the same black ethnicity as the main population; the treatment of black people by Arabic people in Yemen; the murdering of black Melanesians in West Papua by Indonesians; as well as the ones you’ve mentioned... and the African empires’ roles in the slave trade to the Europeans and Asians...

Because this movement is an American one, with America famed for being unaware of the wider world outside their country, pointing out white atrocities against black people [which are absolutely terrible, not downplaying that!] but then because the rest of the world always follows America it just follows that same path. There only seems to be a linking of modern whites to the past and present or a shaming of white people into feeling guilt for their past and present, and everyone else’s past and present on the exact same issue is overlooked or ignored.

Great post mate.

If you look at all corners of the globe you’ll find similar horrors, from people of all colours and creeds.

I don’t have a shred of white guilt as I don’t commit crimes that have a victim. I’m responsible for what I do.

We need to focus on individuals and their behaviour rather than sticking people in groups and pointing fingers at each other.

If there is a law or policy that’s discriminatory, let’s fix it, if we have individuals committing discriminatory acts, let’s punish them.

The protests haven’t been specific enough for me, I’m watching and hearing “Black Lives Matter!” And I’m sat thinking “yeah I agree but now what shall we do in the UK today?”

I completely appreciate frustrations and the sight of a racist cop taking the law into his hands to become executioner, infuriated me but what can I do in my society to quell these frustrations and to progress forward?

I still don’t know.

A mate of mine I’ve talked about on here who’s a white middle class man, really into the cause, very liberal, has been on Instagram saying “hopefully people care more and go out make the change needed and vote more”.

What’s the change needed and who are you telling us to vote for?

Both main parties have race and bigotry issues.

 

[purplenose]

I agree with all of that except:

"...One terrible murder thousands of miles from this country and the whole population of our country have their lives put at risk. .."

It is instead a good number of deeply caring people were joined by a bunch of selfish virtue signallers and anarchist fuckers to put the lives of the whole population of our country at risk

You see people suggesting that some are more concerned about statues than people which is surely simply missing the (very obvious) points that people are making

Yes i certainly accept that an awful lot of people care about what awful things go on far from their own home, i am one of them. The mast majority of those I honestly believe understood fully that what went on at the weekend was only going to cause more division and infact lose support for the just cause that they passionately believe in. Those people I believe would have stayed away and used such things as email and social media to lobby, and perhaps even to consider starting to arrange more events and protests at a time when it would be both safe and effective to do so.

 

[Ban-jani]

i kinda reluctantly agree with this...makes sense.

Maybe we can stop all the "Lest We Forget" flag wavers too...banging on about wars "we won"...but had absolutely nothing to do with?

I am not going to stop remembering people who fought in 2 World Wars because I had nothing to do with it or because the sight of anything proudly British makes people faint.

Sorry mate but my family lost someone on D Day and my Great Grandad, following winning a bravery medal for going back and dragging Injured people out of no man’s land, got captured and spent a year in a POW camp, then spent the rest of his life with PTSD, from fighting actual fascists.

So no, “lest we forget” is going absolutely nowhere.

 

[PannickAtTheDisco]

I agree with all of that except:

"...One terrible murder thousands of miles from this country and the whole population of our country have their lives put at risk. .."

It is instead a good number of deeply caring people were joined by a bunch of selfish virtue signallers and anarchist fuckers to put the lives millions of people across our country at risk

You see people suggesting that some are more concerned about statues than people which is surely simply missing the (very obvious) points that people are making

no, the bit quoted is true for anyone who didn't social distance (which was a sufficiently substantial section of the protesters), regardless of their intentions.

 

[Trevor Morley's Tache]

What did the Romans ever do for us. We should sue Italy for the distress and knock-down Bath

Let's nuke Buxton as well while we are at it.

Bloody Romans.

 

[Ban-jani]

no, the bit quoted is true for anyone who didn't social distance (which was every protester), regardless of their intentions.

A black girl at work who’s in Bradford organised a protest there.

It was maybe 50 people, nowhere near each other, taking a knee.

They put a picture on Instagram and that was that.

The nearest person was like 10 metres away and they seemingly all had masks on.

I have absolutely no grievance with that and support them.

 

[BobKowalski]

I am not going to stop remembering people who fought in 2 World Wars because I had nothing to do with it or because the sight of anything proudly British makes people faint.

Sorry mate but my family lost someone on D Day and my Great Grandad, following winning a bravery medal for going back and dragging Injured people out of no man’s land, got captured and spent a year in a POW camp, then spent the rest of his life with PTSD, from fighting actual fascists.

So no, “lest we forget” is going absolutely nowhere.

This was said in a point about not apologising for things that happened in the past and that had nothing to do with them yet we are happy to celebrate things that happened in the past that equally had nothing to do with them.

We have selective blindness on what we chose to remember.

 

[Mike Cledford]

Whilst there seems to be an appetite for having white people beg for forgiveness over things that happened 100s of years ago, none of which had the slightest thing to do with any white person living today. I wonder why there is no thought of perhaps calling out black people for the kinds of things that happened for example in Rwanda 800k lives should have mattered, as should the continuance of similar things going on to this day in the likes of Nigeria, DR Congo and others.

No mention of the years of carnage in Somalia, the slaughter of any colour of person who should come across Boko Haram.

One terrible murder thousands of miles from this country and the whole population of our country have their lives put at risk.

Where were all these people in Kigali? Why are they not in places such the the Central African Republic, Chad, Mali, Libya. Why are they not in Mogadishu, Eritrea, or even Haiti if Africa is not your bag.

Every day much worse things happen to people in those countries, and its not red neck Yank coppers doing things, but of course its much safer bullying a few coppers ordered not to fight back or for those slightly less brave chucking the odd statue in a river. Before heading of to mix with their families of all ages.

Here is a fact there will be more bame people die as a result of these protests than that shithouse cop in the states killed, there will also be white people die not due to his actions but due to the actions of those claiming to represent a movement claiming lives matter. Sorry I dont believe any lives matter to these people black or otherwise.

I support any genuine efforts to bring people together and stop hatred, but I will not be taking a knee or apologising for stuff from centuries ago or things that happened in the states 2 weeks ago, yes I am white but none of it was anything to do with me.

But the message being put out is that unless you actively condemn the things they want you to either recent or historical that you are just as guilty as the perpetrators.
This sort of opinion was expressed by David Lammy MP worryingly Shadow Minister of Justice and Shadow Lord Chancellor who said people must read certain authors to be (re) educated to agree with his views.
Reminiscent of the Soviet regime and the chilling words of Winnie Mandele who said that people should be re educated or be 'necklaced' with a car tyre full of petrol round someone's neck and set fire gor a long and painful death.

 

[Blue Mist]

What did the Romans ever do for us. We should sue Italy for the distress and knock-down Bath

What did they ever do for us !!! FFS they built a wall to keep @Magicpole out, isn't that enough ?

 

[Ban-jani]

This was said in a point about not apologising for things that happened in the past and that had nothing to do with them yet we are happy to celebrate things that happened in the past that equally had nothing to do with them.

We have selective blindness on what we chose to remember.

It’s a truly terrible take.

Do you want black South Africans to celebrate Mandela’s freedom and the end of apartheid only if they all apologise for the murder of white farmers?

Remembrance Sunday is about those that died, it’s not a celebration and that’s what “lest we forget“ is attached to.

 

[PannickAtTheDisco]

This was said in a point about not apologising for things that happened in the past and that had nothing to do with them yet we are happy to celebrate things that happened in the past that equally had nothing to do with them.

We have selective blindness on what we chose to remember.

so do the people who vandalise statues, or want the debate to only be about the Atlantic slave trade so they can vilify and condemn a particular subset of society they've been socially conditioned to be jealous of and bitter about.

It's the human condition, celebrate your victories, hide your failings and don't publicise them. True of everyone the past few weeks.

Besides, finding the positives out of things, even historical, and taking them on to be progressive values going forward is a good thing. The darker parts are left behind and not taken forward but stand as a warning to not tread that ideology again, we can tear them down and erase them (along with the good) and be left with nothing or we can rationalise, accept it's not black or white and take a mature approach. Seems we're being forced to choose the former but that will have consequences down the line.

 

[PannickAtTheDisco]

A black girl at work who’s in Bradford organised a protest there.

It was maybe 50 people, nowhere near each other, taking a knee.

They put a picture on Instagram and that was that.

The nearest person was like 10 metres away and they seemingly all had masks on.

I have absolutely no grievance with that and support them.

You can asterisk it along with Liverpool's title win, then.

 

[BobKowalski]

It’s a truly terrible take.

Do you want black South Africans to celebrate Mandela’s freedom and the end of apartheid only if they all apologise for the murder of white farmers?

Remembrance Sunday is about those that died, it’s not a celebration and that’s what “lest we forget is attached to”.

I have no idea how you got to South Africa and the murder of white farmers.

Personally I thought it was an excellent point about how we only remember what we chose to remember. A Remembrance Day for all those killed in the Atlantic Slave Trade whilst under British control would be greeted with horror.

 

[Fame Monster]

No.

1.We are talking about slavery of black people because it is relevant to events happening today and in the wider context of racism within the society in which we happen to live. You, and others, appear to be arguing that in order to discuss one specific aspect of slavery, the Atlantic Slave Trade, we must first a) acknowledge all slavery is bad, b) has been going on for thousands of years and c) others were at it as well and were a lot worse than us. In effect you are telling black people, and others, that there are pre conditions that must be met before we discuss their specific situation.

If I discuss a specific crime, say a murder, I am allowed to do so. I do not have to first a) acknowledge all murder is bad, b) has been going on for thousands of years and c) that there are much worse murders.

2. This is symptomatic of what I am saying. The hurdles that must be jumped in order for people’s protests to be ‘legitimate’. They are accused of not campaigning against slavery ‘per se’ but only how it impacted on their community. As if somehow that reduces the validity of their claims and therefore can be dismissed. They are being selfish, as if every other fucker is going around virtuously campaigning against the evils of slavery. Are you? Did I miss the big meet up?

All this fannying around, ‘yes, but, no, but what about the pyramids’ is fucking tedious.

1. It's not about issuing preconditions, it's about reminding some who seem to think it was only the Transatlantic Slave Trade that existed and that every group has been a victim and perpetrator of slavery since the dawn of time.

To use your analogy, if a member of your family was murdered 200 years ago, and you discussed it as if your family had only ever been the victim of a murder then a) you'd be wrong and b) someone would pull you up over it.

2. The point here is that it undermines their argument about equality. There already is a level of equality in that we have statues all over the country of people who have persecuted blacks, whites, Christians, Jews, Muslims, Catholics, women, men, and near enough every other group you can think of. I actually agree with the removal of Colston although I have reservations about the process (and there are probably some others out there too who should be removed) but that's because the bad easily outweighs the good and he lacks historical significance, and not because I want different treatment for different groups.

 

[lazerblue]

anyone dug any dirt up on Eric Morecambe yet?

 

[Bovril]

i kinda reluctantly agree with this...makes sense.

Maybe we can stop all the "Lest We Forget" flag wavers too...banging on about wars "we won"...but had absolutely nothing to do with?

It's not and has never been about the Wars we have won, it is and always has been about the brave people who made the ultimate sacrifice.

 

[Ban-jani]

I have no idea how you got to South Africa and the murder of white farmers.

Personally I thought it was an excellent point about how we only remember what we chose to remember. A Remembrance Day for all those killed in the Atlantic Slave Trade whilst under British control would be greeted with horror.

It was to highlight how ridiculous the point was.

I’m not expecting South Africans to do that.

The point about remembrance is most people have family who served or were affected and they remember it.

It’s also to sell poppies to help bereaved families and those who have suffered from war.

No one alive today knows anyone who lived through the slave trade. I’ve traced my family line and they weren’t involved in it, if you want a silence of remembrance, I’ll gladly do it but don’t you dare suggest I shouldn’t remember the sacrifice my immediate ancestors made to stop the 3rd Reich.

 

[BobKowalski]

1. It's not about issuing preconditions, it's about reminding some who seem to think it was only the Transatlantic Slave Trade that existed and that every group has been a victim and perpetrator of slavery since the dawn of time.

To use your analogy, if a member of your family was murdered 200 years ago, and you discussed it as if your family had only ever been the victim of a murder then a) you'd be wrong and b) someone would pull you up over it.

2. The point here is that it undermines their argument about equality. There already is a level of equality in that we have statues all over the country of people who have persecuted blacks, whites, Christians, Jews, Muslims, Catholics, women, men, and near enough every other group you can think of. I actually agree with the removal of Colston although I have reservations about the process (and there are probably some others out there too who should be removed) but that's because the bad easily outweighs the good and he lacks historical significance, and not because I want different treatment for different groups.

And again no. You are putting down pre conditions. Do not talk about the Atlantic Slave Trade without also acknowledging other slave trades existed and reminding them they are not the only ones to suffer because you know the Romans.

This aspect of the slave trade is being talked about because of its context and impact on society as it is today, a society that we all live in. That it is relevance and why the impact of slavery in Roman Britain is not. If Roman Britain still existed then you can bet the impact of slavery in Roman Britain would be a thing.

No one is denying slavery didn’t exist elsewhere. No one is saying do not talk about other slave trades, or modern forms of slavery. By all means discuss it, campaign against it, no one is going to say ‘well hang on can you please acknowledge other aspects of slavery first, otherwise shut up.’

As for equality ‘you don’t want different treatment for different groups’ well that’s big of you. So if one group isn’t treated equally then how do they get this message to you? Do they first have to acknowledge that in the past everyone has had the rough end of the stick? Do they have to keep quiet and wait until equality magically appears after a few hundred years? Do they wait until there are enough bodies for people to notice, because they are kind of piling up in some places?

Do tell black and other minorities how to do it properly. I’m sure they will be grateful.

 

[BobKowalski]

It was to highlight how ridiculous the point was.

I’m not expecting South Africans to do that.

The point about remembrance is most people have family who served or were affected and they remember it.

It’s also to sell poppies to help bereaved families and those who have suffered from war.

No one alive today knows anyone who lived through the slave trade. I’ve traced my family line and they weren’t involved in it, if you want a silence of remembrance, I’ll gladly do it but don’t you dare suggest I shouldn’t remember the sacrifice my immediate ancestors made to stop the 3rd Reich.

No one is. It’s just being pointed out that we are selective in what we remember and if we have that right to be selective then so do black people when it comes to the Atlantic Slave Trade.

Sound fair?