UEFA FFP investigation - CAS decision to be announced Monday, 13th July 9.30am BST

What do you think will be the outcome of the CAS hearing?

  • Two-year ban upheld

    Votes: 197 13.1%
  • Ban reduced to one year

    Votes: 422 28.2%
  • Ban overturned and City exonerated

    Votes: 815 54.4%
  • Other

    Votes: 65 4.3%

  • Total voters
    1,499
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To back up Ric's posting of yesterday, without getting too carried away.

A contact has stated this afternoon a hearing which was extremely respectful and also 'very positive'.

I have not spoken to Ric and can be 100 per cent confident this is from a separate source.

Another encouraging report. Do you consider that your contact is in a position to know ie did he witness the hearing by actually seeing it or is he reporting the reactions of people who participated? In other words how close is he? The "very positive" is a phrase that we might expect from someone who had talked to people who had talked to... and so on, but "very respectful" is an unusual turn of phrase (I'm not sure what it quite means!) for a hearing of this kind and does suggest a personal and individual view based on some form of first hand personal experience. But perhaps I'd be better just waiting for the decision! Thanks anyway Tolmie the post is much appreciated.
 
As i see it a few ambiguous emails are exactly what they are relying on plus a charge of city refusing to communicate.

Listening to Stefan it is apparent that we provided them with a lot of information, I’m assuming we were less forthcoming when the leaks started & continued
 
This may be a simple way of looking at things but the arguments, which City deny, are mainly about the level and source of finance versus the allegations which are sourced back to pre-2014 and coming from a German publication which gets some of it's material from a hacker who is currently behind bars. These allegations should never have got anywhere near this stage but as they have and have had years for them to fester then let us hope that City learn their lesson and do what at least one other prominent name in the game does by storing their accounts in a more secure setting, ie the Cayman Islands.
 
Another encouraging report. Do you consider that your contact is in a position to know ie did he witness the hearing by actually seeing it or is he reporting the reactions of people who participated? In other words how close is he? The "very positive" is a phrase that we might expect from someone who had talked to people who had talked to... and so on, but "very respectful" is an unusual turn of phrase (I'm not sure what it quite means!) for a hearing of this kind and does suggest a personal and individual view based on some form of first hand personal experience. But perhaps I'd be better just waiting for the decision! Thanks anyway Tolmie the post is much appreciated.

Not top of the food chain but certainly someone I could not ignore, put it that way.

They would have heard it back at base camp.
 
Another encouraging report. Do you consider that your contact is in a position to know ie did he witness the hearing by actually seeing it or is he reporting the reactions of people who participated? In other words how close is he? The "very positive" is a phrase that we might expect from someone who had talked to people who had talked to... and so on, but "very respectful" is an unusual turn of phrase (I'm not sure what it quite means!) for a hearing of this kind and does suggest a personal and individual view based on some form of first hand personal experience. But perhaps I'd be better just waiting for the decision! Thanks anyway Tolmie the post is much appreciated.

“Very respectful” probably means City and UEFA weren’t chucking meat pies at each other via video link, and it was all conducted rather cordially. The club have made some robust statements about UEFA in all this but have also made the point that our issues aren’t with everyone within the organisation.
 
“Very respectful” probably means City and UEFA weren’t chucking meat pies at each other via video link, and it was all conducted rather cordially. The club have made some robust statements about UEFA in all this but have also made the point that our issues aren’t with everyone within the organisation.

The good old meat pie launched at the referee.

Probably get banned for life for that now lol.
 
The author is a junior barrister and does not appear to be a sports specialist. That is not to say he is wrong or unqualified but it is relevant.

The article does highlight though why this is a dangerous time for the club and why I would advocate settling unless City have such confidence in their position that settling is unpalatable. The position he takes are definitely arguable points.

That said, I disagree with Football Law on the points above. If you have been following closely most of the article is nothing new and the key passage is this one you have copied on p15.

Football Law says he thinks both the 5 year limit point and the "release" argument are "misjudged".

In support on the 5 year limit point, he refers to the Rubin Kazan case http://jurisprudence.tas-cas.org/Shared Documents/5977.pdf (paras 89-100) to support his assertion the mere "opening of proceedings" is sufficient to stop time from running. Incidentally, it is a case where Dr Jan Kliener also acted for UEFA (apparently the "A team" and who is acting for UEFA on City). I disagree that Rubin Kazan is a good precedent on the point and UEFA were obviously right in their arguments at CAS. Indeed, in Rubin Kazan, the club had not exited the Settlement Regime.

Critically, Rubin Kazan never satisfied or complied with their Settlement Agreement - they made a half-hearted argument based on the season ending. But this is weak. City on the other hand definitively did exit the Settlement Regime and the a Letter of Release was issued. Football Law's point that opening the investigation in March 2019 was sufficient to meet the 5 year limit is not really made out.

This is not what the Rubin Kazan case says nor what R37 states: "Prosecution is barred after five years for all breaches of the UEFA Club Licensing and Financial Fair Play Regulations."

Now if UEFA's case is actually that City breached its 2014 Settlement Agreement and therefore it is ripping up the ending of the Settlement Regime then that could potentially keep it within the 5 years. In my mind, a more natural reading of R37 is that the limit is 5 years from the breach itself – ie the transaction or transactions that were the breaches. As I have said, I believe that breaches prior to May 2014 or even taking Football Law 's point on the commencement of an investigation before March 2014, are barred. Most of the alleged breaches occurred before this date and therefore, I would be arguing they are time barred.

Football Law's analysis would mean in essence that UEFA could investigate breaches from many many years ago. The logical inference of FootballLaw’s view would mean breaches in the 2011/12 period (covered in the May 2014 Settlement) could be re-evaluated 5 years from the exiting of the Settlement Regime in April 2017 ie any time before April 2022. With respect to Football Law that just can't be right.

He then argues “Further, if the CLFFPR violation allegations against MCFC are proven – as the AC Decision indicates they are – then MCFC was never entitled to a ‘release’ from the May 2014 Settlement Agreement and the CFCB was entitled to commence the Investigation/make the Referral Decision against MCFC.[12] This encapsulates a basic legal principle that no one shall benefit from their own wrongdoing.” Reference 12 is missing. I don’t agree with the application of that legal principle here either - I'd like to see a CAS case where this was applied if relevant. If he was right, City could be liable for the next 50 years.

I do agree with Football Law on the proportionality of the sanction. I think if CAS refuse the appeal, 2 years looks proportionate – it would be a very serious contravention and has elements of deceit and concealment which are obvious aggravating factors.
Do you think there is a possibility of a settlement now? If UEFA think they are in danger of losing the case, they may want to reach an accommodation, and vice versa.

As a fan I just want City to exit this process in the Champions League and untouchable as far as the Premier League goes. if we could do that by reaching a settlement with UEFA then I'd do it too but a 2 year ban to some kind of suspended sentence seems almost unbridgeable. i don't think many people would expect it.
 
Just one other observation looking again at Rubin Kazan http://jurisprudence.tas-cas.org/Shared Documents/5977.pdf

It reminds of an important point. The entering into the 2014 settlement agreement is prima facie confirmation that UEFA consider they are settling a breach for the periods before ie from Rubin "a settlement agreement is concluded as a consequence of the fact that the club has already violated the UEFA CL&FFPR before and is therefore afforded a second chance." Whilst I accept the possibility that City can be found to have breached in seasons after the 2011/12, 2012/13 seasons that led to the 2014 settlement, I don't accept the same breaches for the period before 13/14 can be used again for a second penalty. That makes no sense. This, for me, reinforces that even if the 5 year limitation argument (and the temporal jurisdiction argument - dont ask)) doesn't work only seasons 13/14, 14/15 and 15/16 are in play. Why is this important? Because almost all of the emails in question refer to a period before 2014 leaving 2 key emails - items 6 and 7 from this tranche https://www.spiegel.de/sport/fussba...ostrecke-a293d1c1-0001-0002-0000-000000167278. I think it could turn on those 2 docs which means it could turn on one line - the £8m vs £67.5m from Etihad. City will argue "forget that email and look at the irrefutable audit and the actual contract" and "in any event if Etihad was related we were entitled to structure this way." UEFA will say, "City have falsified their accounts and told us Etihad was not related." You decide...
 
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Do you think there is a possibility of a settlement now? If UEFA think they are in danger of losing the case, they may want to reach an accommodation, and vice versa.

As a fan I just want City to exit this process in the Champions League and untouchable as far as the Premier League goes. if we could do that by reaching a settlement with UEFA then I'd do it too but a 2 year ban to some kind of suspended sentence seems almost unbridgeable. i don't think many people would expect it.

Fool me once shame on you.

Fool me twice shame on me.

We'd be crazy to trust uefa, after all what's happened in the past.

We've needed a straightener with these crooks for years, bring it on.
 
Do you think there is a possibility of a settlement now? If UEFA think they are in danger of losing the case, they may want to reach an accommodation, and vice versa.

As a fan I just want City to exit this process in the Champions League and untouchable as far as the Premier League goes. if we could do that by reaching a settlement with UEFA then I'd do it too but a 2 year ban to some kind of suspended sentence seems almost unbridgeable. i don't think many people would expect it.

Yes - but difficult now. Either party reaching out looks weak and as if it knows it has lost so the compromise is difficult to achieve.
 
Fool me once shame on you.

Fool me twice shame on me.

We'd be crazy to trust uefa, after all what's happened in the past.

We've needed a straightener with these crooks for years, bring it on.
Uefa would turn that round: "If they have deceived us"......again...
 
And one more point. We actually KNOW that this inference that 2 of the 3 of the Panel were as per CAS 1 is irrelevant. The Panel at CAS 1 included Mr Andrew de Lotbinière McDougall, Attorney-at-Law in Paris, France - CITY'S NOMINEE; and ➢ Mr Ulrich Haas, Professor of Law in Zurich, Switzerland UEFA's NOMINEE. So all that changed for CAS 2 was the President.
 
Just one other observation looking again at Rubin Kazan http://jurisprudence.tas-cas.org/Shared Documents/5977.pdf

It reminds of an important point. The entering into the 2014 settlement agreement is prima facie confirmation that UEFA consider they are settling a breach for the periods before ie from Rubin "a settlement agreement is concluded as a consequence of the fact that the club has already violated the UEFA CL&FFPR before and is therefore afforded a second chance." Whilst I accept the possibility that City can be found to have breached in seasons after the 2011/12, 2012/13 seasons that led to the 2014 settlement, I don't accept the same breaches for the period before 13/14 can be used again for a second penalty. That makes no sense. This, for me, reinforces that even if the 5 year limitation argument (and the temporal jurisdiction argument - dont ask)) doesn't work only seasons 13/14, 14/15 and 15/16 are in play. Why is this important? Because almost all of the emails in question refer to a period before 2014 leaving 2 key emails - items 6 and 7 from this tranche https://www.spiegel.de/sport/fussba...ostrecke-a293d1c1-0001-0002-0000-000000167278. I think it could turn on those 2 docs which means it could turn on one line - the £8m vs £67.5m from Etihad. City will argue "forget that email and look at the irrefutable audit and the actual contract" and "in any event if Etihad was related we were entitled to structure this way." UEFA will say, "City have falsified their accounts and told us Etihad was not related." You decide...

Christ, this next few weeks is going to be unpleasant waiting for the decision. Especially when you see it potentially boil down to one line.
 
The good old meat pie launched at the referee.

Probably get banned for life for that now lol.

Peter Willis. Sent Andy May off for complaining after some 6 fingered Oldhamite had cut Jamie Hoyland (I think?) in half, and big bald Pete decided to play on and on and on. Never was a meat pie in the face more deserved
 
With regards to RAWK - it is a form of exposure that can only be done very rarely and very briefly.

The redscouse are the absolute demonstration of entitlement and their hatred for CITY is 'off the scale'. So many posts demanding that we have no relevance - even as they obsess about us.

The good old meat pie launched at the referee.

Probably get banned for life for that now lol.

Peter Willis. Sent Andy May off for complaining after some 6 fingered Oldhamite had cut Jamie Hoyland (I think?) in half, and big bald Pete decided to play on and on and on. Never was a meat pie in the face more deserved

You saved me a job was just about to type about that.
 
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