Another new Brexit thread

[kevin horlocks wand]

Haha - the 'success fine' https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-29751124

exactly we would not have to pay, “my arse” jim royle

 

[kevin horlocks wand]

What’s that got to do with bailouts?

it means contribution to the central pot is not a fixed amount but can go up (in our case) if we do better than expected, have a look at the link my cheese friend has just posted.

ergo we put more money in and the eu dishes it out.

 

[mcfc1632]

That wasn't supposed to happen, we've been told that there was no chance.


Has he really, well well.


'Room to manoeuvre' there is none really, it looks like he's giving way here.


Indeed it must.

All in all, not bad progress.

It is obvious that the resolve being shown by the new negotiating team has proved much more of a challenge for the EU than the previous doormats.

It is good that you can appreciate that this is positive for the UK

It would be better if the Remainers could also show some acknowledgement that it is indeed positive for the UK - we are indeed afterall all UK citizens (well the vast majority of us).

It speaks volumes that seeing the EU benefit over the UK means more to them than the health of the UK economy for generations to come.

And all this is starting to happen because it was always true that:

"We will not see movement from the EU unless and until they are faced with the prospect of a viable walk-away option – and the political will to use it”​

I doubt that many/any Remainers will man up to accepting that - although why not? as either doing so or not speaks volumes about their character.

Anyway - let's just hope that Frost continues to be backed and there are further benefits that will flow for the UK if the resolve is continued.

 

[west didsblue]

it means contribution to the central pot is not a fixed amount but can go up (in our case) if we do better than expected, have a look at the link my cheese friend has just posted.

The discussion was about bailouts not general contributions.

 

[kevin horlocks wand]

The discussion was about bailouts not general contributions.

same thing it’s money into the pot and where it goes. Call money in bailout, contribution, additional contribution, what you like.

if however the uk was doing better than the eu which was in a mess the eu can demand a bigger contribution from us to help fix the problem . If we are out they can’t.

anyway it’s a moot point we are apparently fucked when we leave the eu and the eu is going to accelerate and become the super economic , military powerhouse on the planet and we are mad to be leaving.

they don’t need our money.

 

[kevin horlocks wand]

Haha - the 'success fine' https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-29751124

the winners and losers in that table in that article tells you everything,

 

[mcfc1632]

At least Kevin had a list. We might not agree with most things on it but it’s an out of date argument really. No 8 is certainly a very credible reason to have wanted out.

I can certainly see a EU propped up financially more and more by Germany which to me is not a sustainable model. Fwiw, I think both the U.K. and the EU will face significant upheaval over the next couple of years. The EU, Covid and getting to a sustainable model for Italy, Spain, Greece. The U.K., Brexit and Covid. The entire continent is in for a bumpy ride.

Indeed

and re No. 8

Just think about my comments on the 'threat' to the UK of the 2021 MFF if we had Remained. We would have been paying £billions many more and then face signing up to EU controls and commitments to increased integration to access funds to address the pandemic in the UK.

The UK's contributions will just go up and up - until we becoming a failing economy - once we reach that level in the EU we might get some respite - YAAY

And none of the 'arch-Remainers' (I do not include you in that group) have come forward with any comment on that above childishness - probably because......

 

[west didsblue]

same thing it’s money into the pot and where it goes. Call money in bailout, contribution, additional contribution, what you like.

if however the uk was doing better than the eu which was in a mess the eu can demand a bigger contribution from us to help fix the problem . If we are out they can’t.

anyway it’s a moot point we are apparently fucked when we leave the eu and the eu is going to accelerate and become the super economic , military powerhouse on the planet and we are mad to be leaving.

they don’t need our money.

It’s not the same thing. Bailouts are via the European stability mechanism of which we’re not or never been a part.

 

[kevin horlocks wand]

It’s not the same thing. Bailouts are via the European stability mechanism of which we’re not or never been a part.

yeah and the decision for collecting amounts fluctuating and determined by the eu and then subsequent reallocation are for the eu. If we are not in the eu we are not compelled.
You are talking about bail outs , it’s about money in and where it goes I am concerned about don’t care what it’s called

never mind the Covid fallout have the eu determined how they are making up the uk shortfall yet? Maybe could get it from that european stability mechanism which you are speaking of.

 

[Metal Biker]

Haha - the 'success fine' https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-29751124

The catalyst for leaving.

 

[west didsblue]

yeah and the decision for collecting amounts fluctuating and determined by the eu and then subsequent reallocation are for the eu. If we are not in the eu we are not compelled.
You are talking about bail outs , it’s about money in and where it goes I am concerned about don’t care what it’s called

never mind the Covid fallout have the eu determined how they are making up the uk shortfall yet? Maybe could get it from that european stability mechanism which you are speaking of.

Decisions are by the European Council of which we used to have a say so it’s wrong to say it was just imposed. We no longer have a say so if we end up with similar trading arrangements as now after the FTA is agreed we’ll be stuck with having these costs imposed on us with no say. That’s a consequence of Brexit.

As for the second paragraph. Not our problem and not sure why you’re asking.

 

[kevin horlocks wand]

Decisions are by the European Council of which we used to have a say so it’s wrong to say it was just imposed. We no longer have a say so if we end up with similar trading arrangements as now after the FTA is agreed we’ll be stuck with having these costs imposed on us with no say. That’s a consequence of Brexit.

As for the second paragraph. Not our problem and not sure why you’re asking.

no we won’t .

 

[west didsblue]

no we won’t .

Only if we end up with No Deal.
So yes, you could be right.

 

[mcfc1632]

of course if the eu post brexit and post Covid has a political and economic fallout it will hit the uk hard as well , but we will not be compelled to bail out failing countries as we would be if we were still a member. However hopefully if it does start really having problems this country will do the right things by our neighbours if we are able, but be our decision.

This is at the heart of key issues that it seems very few (only one or two on here) Remainers have come to accept or even understand.

They seem to treat it all as some form of 'football rivalry' - Leavers do not.

We do not want the EU to fail - but it is going to suffer major issues and adopt multi-speed integration

We don't want to 'glory' in the difficulties that the EU will undoubtedly go through - the sooner they happen and the worse the issues are - the greater the impact on the UK

We need the UK to get free of EU controls and the contingent liabilities before the severe issues fully unfold.

For me - a key difference between Remainers and Leavers - certainly on this forum - is that Remainers can only look backwards to what has happened since the 70s and Leavers are looking forwards towards what is on the horizon for the next few decades

You hear so much about how the UK was the sick man of Europe in the 60s and 70s - yeah - but that was a long time ago.

You also hear so much about - oh, integration will not affect the UK - we are not in the EZ - we have vetoes blah blah etc. etc.

This just shows that they have not been monitoring where the EU is going and what it is planning - yet they still bang on with the same old soundbites.

Opt-outs and vetoes are a currency of years ago - and not the future

The UK either needs to be fully in and seeking to drive policy - or genuinely out and able to manage / direct our own future.

Also all the bollocks about Johnson's incompetence etc. is embarrassing - we are talking about decades here - not the term of a parliament.

 

[mcfc1632]

you mean like the rule that states when our economy performs better than in the eu our contributions To the central pot go up as a consequence......

And the UK have had that call for more funds from the EU - I cannot believe how the demand in October 2015 went largely unreported by the pro-EU government.

Going forward the Uk could only benefit from EU membership by being a failing economy - if we get to a lower level than other members we might eventually get some money coming our way

Well wouldn't that be a positive outcome of EU membership!!

 

[kevin horlocks wand]

Only if we end up with No Deal.
So yes, you could be right.

even if there is a deal the scenario you describe is bollox the idea that any country, company or person accepting any clause in a contract which states that

Party A (ie the eu ) can in its absolute discretion and at anytime and as many times as it shall determine during the contract compel party B to pay immediately upon demand any amount (s) determined by Party A in its absolute discretion. Party B shall pay upon receipt of any such notice pay the amount stated in the notice.

You think Canada or japan accepted such an obligation in their FTAs? Yeah under FTAs agreed with the EU the EU can still get billions whenever it wants from the other party under the agreement .

you understand what free trade agreements are trying to do between trading blocks don’t you?

 

[mcfc1632]

yeah and the decision for collecting amounts fluctuating and determined by the eu and then subsequent reallocation are for the eu. If we are not in the eu we are not compelled.
You are talking about bail outs , it’s about money in and where it goes I am concerned about don’t care what it’s called

never mind the Covid fallout have the eu determined how they are making up the uk shortfall yet? Maybe could get it from that european stability mechanism which you are speaking of.

And this is why I have been posting about the impact the next MFF would have had on the UK's contributions and the associated increased controls over the UK by the EU

There is a reason that the EU are making the pandemic recovery fund part of the MFF

This will also be the reason why those Remainers that understand the issue do not repsond - inconvenient truths

 

[mcfc1632]

The catalyst for leaving.

I wonder if anyone other than Leavers will comment on the benefit to Germany and France from that (and similar) transactions ?

 

[west didsblue]

even if there is a deal the scenario you describe is bollox the idea that any country, company or person accepting any clause in a contract which states that

Party A (ie the eu ) can in its absolute discretion and at anytime and as many times as it shall determine during the contract compel party B to pay immediately upon demand any amount (s) determined by Party A in its absolute discretion. Party B shall pay upon receipt of any such notice pay the amount stated in the notice.

You think Canada or japan accepted such an obligation in their FTAs? Yeah under FTAs agreed with the EU the EU can still get billions whenever it wants from the other party under the agreement .

you understand what free trade agreements are trying to do between trading blocks don’t you?

The cost will be proportionate to the level of market access. Basic FTA - not much cost and not much benefit. Comprehensive deal won’t come without significant obligations.

 

[kevin horlocks wand]

The cost will be proportionate to the level of market access. Basic FTA - not much cost and not much benefit. Comprehensive deal won’t come without significant obligations.

so back to the main point even if there is a cost the eu will not be able to unilaterally change the amount during the contract, like they were able to change our contributions when we were members of the eu

incidentally , Will we charge the eu for access to our market if you think the eu are going to charge us for accessing their market ?