Another new Brexit thread

[Vic]

Quite. Despite a lot of the economic arguments against brexit being quite compelling, it's hard to get past the overall picture of around four nations (including France and Germany) being net spenders that underwrite the entire expansionist project at tremendous cost. If the EU were just honest about this and said it was a price we have to pay for a stable continent and the projection of soft power into the former Soviet bloc I'd probably see the value. They don't make this (actually quite reasonable) case because in doing so they would be admitting their federalist agenda.

Good grief. "If it's not one wrong explanation it must be my other wrong explanation". Or this: the value of the single market far outweighs the net contributions.

https://www.statista.com/chart/amp/18794/net-contributors-to-eu-budget/

 

[Vic]

’The European Union was set up with the aim of ending the frequent and bloody wars between neighbours, which culminated in the Second World War and to promote peace, the well-being of its citizens, and offer freedom, security and justice without internal borders.’

Four fucking years and you guys still don't have a fucking clue.

Or this.

 

[Metal Biker]

’The European Union was set up with the aim of ending the frequent and bloody wars between neighbours, which culminated in the Second World War and to promote peace, the well-being of its citizens, and offer freedom, security and justice without internal borders.’

Four fucking years and you guys still don't have a fucking clue.

The concept of the "European Union" as we know it today was first devised in the 1920's after the First World War. Hitler's antics kind of got in the way of it's intended progress for a bit.

In fact the first 'Customs Union' could be traced back to Bonaparte's 'Continental System'. A "United Europe" has always been about one thing; control.

 

[Mazzarelli's Swiss Cheese]

Here’s a novel idea can’t all the eu countries just fuck the EU off and have a free trade arrangement across the whole of Europe with some managers and administrators in the centre paid to ensure it works.

Essentially how it started, before the membership bills got silly and the totalitarian tip toe towards federalism.

 

[Metal Biker]

There’s an idea. We could call it the ’Union of Europe’.

Fuck’s sake.

Get rid of the 'European Parliament', the 'Financial contributions', the 'authoritarian mindset to tell member nations what it should do' and i'd be more interested. But they already told us "no, but you can veto". Better to be out of such a shady organisation and turn tricks elsewhere.

 

[west didsblue]

that’s the managers job. Remember the EEC that’s what it was about - trade - between european nations

you should go to cheetham hill plenty of cheap goods.

boohoo says hi.

Yes they could call the management group the commission and make them answerable to the leaders of each country who could form something called a council. They could also have representatives of the population elected to nominate the commission members and make sure the commission acts in the interests of the population. That might work.

 

[Mazzarelli's Swiss Cheese]

The concept of the "European Union" as we know it today was first devised in the 1920's after the First World War. Hitler's antics kind of got in the way of it's intended progress for a bit.

In fact the first 'Customs Union' could be traced back to Bonaparte's 'Continental System'. A "United Europe" has always been about one thing; control.

Indeed.this bloke is almost as clever as Vic and Bob, and seems to have a handle on it

 

[Metal Biker]

Indeed.this bloke is almost as clever as Vic and Bob, and seems to have a handle on it

But does he post his opinions on a football forum?

Invalidated! (will give it a watch, though)

 

[Vic]

The concept of the "European Union" as we know it today was first devised in the 1920's after the First World War. Hitler's antics kind of got in the way of it's intended progress for a bit.

In fact the first 'Customs Union' could be traced back to Bonaparte's 'Continental System'. A "United Europe" has always been about one thing; control.

The Continental System wasn't anything like a customs union. It was a division, a wartime trade blockade (and not creating a trading bloc).

 

[Vic]

Get rid of the 'European Parliament', the 'Financial contributions', the 'authoritarian mindset to tell member nations what it should do' and i'd be more interested. But they already told us "no, but you can veto". Better to be out of such a shady organisation and turn tricks elsewhere.

EFTA?

 

[Vic]

Indeed.this bloke is almost as clever as Vic and Bob, and seems to have a handle on it

Handle on what?

I didn't expect to be watching an economics lecture at midnight and he's very entertaining, and I suspect he might well be more clever than I am (or has just studied economics for longer than my two years at A level). But handle on what? His view on Thatcherism (37.30 for a minute)? On the different ways EU states handled the crash? (Belgium did well because they didn't have a government at the time!) The madness of austerity? The power of people with money (whether you're in the EU or not)?

The role of the ECB? I suspect that's the bit you heard. Do you think he's pro-Brexit???

 

[blueinsa]

’The European Union was set up with the aim of ending the frequent and bloody wars between neighbours, which culminated in the Second World War and to promote peace, the well-being of its citizens, and offer freedom, security and justice without internal borders.’

Four fucking years and you guys still don't have a fucking clue.

"Once upon a time........the end"

 

[kevin horlocks wand]

EFTA?

Aye

 

[Vic]

 

[blueish swede]

Quite. Despite a lot of the economic arguments against brexit being quite compelling, it's hard to get past the overall picture of around four nations (including France and Germany) being net spenders that underwrite the entire expansionist project at tremendous cost. If the EU were just honest about this and said it was a price we have to pay for a stable continent and the projection of soft power into the former Soviet bloc I'd probably see the value. They don't make this (actually quite reasonable) case because in doing so they would be admitting their federalist agenda.

You need to get past the idea that there are "net spenders" in the EU. Every country in the EU has a net financial gain from being in th EU, as you rightly imply in the bolded part of your post. The amount paid by an individual country is returned with interest by the economic gains of being in the single market because the single market creates wealth. You a labouring under what is known as the "fixed pie fallacy". It is the basis for many economic fallicies, including Brexit.

 

[bluethrunthru]

So many of them were pro-Brexit though....

 

[BobKowalski]

Blimey Guv...

‘A 90-page draft of the new border arrangements, “The Border with the European Union, Importing and Exporting Goods”, seen by the Guardian, lays bare the complicated new paperwork facing all businesses from 1 January, whether there is a deal or not.

Sources say a later draft runs to more than 100 pages and will give businesses the first confirmed details of the scale of the challenge they face in less than six months’ time.

The draft version features flow charts and “process maps” instructing businesses on the steps they will need to take in future and needs a three-page glossary to explain some terms relating to importing and exporting.

It notes that from January, all businesses trading with the EU need to prepare for customs declarations, which have not been required since 1993, when the single market brought down trade barriers.’

https://www.theguardian.com/politic...t-launches-new-get-ready-for-brexit-campaign?

 

[Vic]

So many of them were pro-Brexit though....

NFU did tell them it was a bad idea (but in the end I think was "neutral" because so many farmers believed the lies).

 

[Vic]

Blimey Guv...

‘A 90-page draft of the new border arrangements, “The Border with the European Union, Importing and Exporting Goods”, seen by the Guardian, lays bare the complicated new paperwork facing all businesses from 1 January, whether there is a deal or not.

Sources say a later draft runs to more than 100 pages and will give businesses the first confirmed details of the scale of the challenge they face in less than six months’ time.

The draft version features flow charts and “process maps” instructing businesses on the steps they will need to take in future and needs a three-page glossary to explain some terms relating to importing and exporting.

It notes that from January, all businesses trading with the EU need to prepare for customs declarations, which have not been required since 1993, when the single market brought down trade barriers.’

https://www.theguardian.com/politic...t-launches-new-get-ready-for-brexit-campaign?

That would be the new Get Ready for Brexit campaign rather than the old Get Ready for Brexit campaign.
https://www.gov.uk/government/news/get-ready-for-brexit-campaign-launched

 

[bluethrunthru]

NFU did tell them it was a bad idea (but in the end I think was "neutral" because so many farmers believed the lies).

very much like the Mackems who are now experiencing buyers remorse I couldn't care less about them - they will reap what the sowed.