The Labour Party

Saddleworth2 said:
You think so? It seems to me the sun/times still weighs a great deal.
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He/his family still has far more power than he should have imo but I think the internet has reduced his influence. Especially since both The Sun and Times are behind a paywall so his influence is far less than a lot of other publications/platforms.
 
Fame Monster said:
He/his family still has far more power than he should have imo but I think the internet has reduced his influence. Especially since both The Sun and Times are behind a paywall so his influence is far less than a lot of other publications/platforms.
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He still seems very close to whoever holds power. Maybe his successor will wield less influence. Hope that’s the case.
 
I'd like a circular argument in which I just keep repeating my own cherished views with no intention of actually debating anything. Is this the best place to kick off now the brexit thread has gone?
 
Rascal said:
He was , why do you keep denying it
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Neoliberalism isn’t mass public spending and it is austerity measures.

Blair is the former and not the latter. He engaged in some privatisation but overall he arguably overspent in public services, increasing the deficit whilst in the middle of an economic boom.

His detractors criticise him for investing too much in public services.

You’re so lost at sea to the left, you cannot see the shore of the centre.
 
Ban-jani said:
If you gave the people running the SDP control over Labour they’d win a landslide.

Blue Labour need to make a return to see them get anywhere.
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Blue Labour was only ever a theory in Glasmans head, its most prominent supporter is Embery, leader of the FBU, who BTW is a leaver and is no Socialist.

The Blair years ruined the Labour party and turned it away from a working class Socialist party into a party that supported and continued the Thatcherite neo-liberal reforms, they even stuck to the Tory spending plans for the first 2 years in power, refused to repeal anti TU laws and further deregulated the City, all hallmarks of neo liberalism. They introduced further privatisation in the NHS, and refused to renationalise any of the industries sold off for pennies under Thatcher.


The SDP have some ideas that fit comfortably with me, communitarianism is clever and I could support that, I would prefer them to Starmer's Labour party but unless PR is introduced they will remain on the fringe and it does not suit the Tories to bring in PR. Plus they are pro-Brexit which would appeal to the red wall and a lot of Labour leavers, the problem is they have no presence and the fragmentation of the left will likely lead to a number of smaller parties such as Galloways Workers Party vying for the same votes. The left will cancel each other out under FTP.

Of course there is a difference between Social Democracy and Democratic Socialism, Social Democracy allows for capitalism to co-exist within its structures whilst Democratic Socialism advocates the socialised owning of the means of production and I lean towards Democratic Socialism rather than Social Democracy although there is a cultural cross over between the two in certain areas. I am not sure the SDP would appeal to many Democratic Socialists because of its stance on capitalism and whilst the Nordic model of Social Democracy has much to be admired they didn't go through the huge reconstruction of the state enabled by Thatcherism.
 
Rascal said:
Blue Labour was only ever a theory in Glasmans head, its most prominent supporter is Embery, leader of the FBU, who BTW is a leaver and is no Socialist.

The Blair years ruined the Labour party and turned it away from a working class Socialist party into a party that supported and continued the Thatcherite neo-liberal reforms, they even stuck to the Tory spending plans for the first 2 years in power, refused to repeal anti TU laws and further deregulated the City, all hallmarks of neo liberalism. They introduced further privatisation in the NHS, and refused to renationalise any of the industries sold off for pennies under Thatcher.


The SDP have some ideas that fit comfortably with me, communitarianism is clever and I could support that, I would prefer them to Starmer's Labour party but unless PR is introduced they will remain on the fringe and it does not suit the Tories to bring in PR. Plus they are pro-Brexit which would appeal to the red wall and a lot of Labour leavers, the problem is they have no presence and the fragmentation of the left will likely lead to a number of smaller parties such as Galloways Workers Party vying for the same votes. The left will cancel each other out under FTP.

Of course there is a difference between Social Democracy and Democratic Socialism, Social Democracy allows for capitalism to co-exist within its structures whilst Democratic Socialism advocates the socialised owning of the means of production and I lean towards Democratic Socialism rather than Social Democracy although there is a cultural cross over between the two in certain areas. I am not sure the SDP would appeal to many Democratic Socialists because of its stance on capitalism and whilst the Nordic model of Social Democracy has much to be admired they didn't go through the huge reconstruction of the state enabled by Thatcherism.
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New Labour might have 'ruined' the perception of Labour amongst socialists as a "socialist ideological party", but it did great wonders for the majority of British people across all backgrounds and circumstances, which ideally is what we all want to see, right?

If New Labour helped more people than socialist Labour did, where is the problem?
 
Rascal said:
Blue Labour was only ever a theory in Glasmans head, its most prominent supporter is Embery, leader of the FBU, who BTW is a leaver and is no Socialist.

The Blair years ruined the Labour party and turned it away from a working class Socialist party into a party that supported and continued the Thatcherite neo-liberal reforms, they even stuck to the Tory spending plans for the first 2 years in power, refused to repeal anti TU laws and further deregulated the City, all hallmarks of neo liberalism. They introduced further privatisation in the NHS, and refused to renationalise any of the industries sold off for pennies under Thatcher.


The SDP have some ideas that fit comfortably with me, communitarianism is clever and I could support that, I would prefer them to Starmer's Labour party but unless PR is introduced they will remain on the fringe and it does not suit the Tories to bring in PR. Plus they are pro-Brexit which would appeal to the red wall and a lot of Labour leavers, the problem is they have no presence and the fragmentation of the left will likely lead to a number of smaller parties such as Galloways Workers Party vying for the same votes. The left will cancel each other out under FTP.

Of course there is a difference between Social Democracy and Democratic Socialism, Social Democracy allows for capitalism to co-exist within its structures whilst Democratic Socialism advocates the socialised owning of the means of production and I lean towards Democratic Socialism rather than Social Democracy although there is a cultural cross over between the two in certain areas. I am not sure the SDP would appeal to many Democratic Socialists because of its stance on capitalism and whilst the Nordic model of Social Democracy has much to be admired they didn't go through the huge reconstruction of the state enabled by Thatcherism.
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Latter two paragraphs I completely agree with, the former two I do not agree.

They’ll never get in but if they led the Labour Party and took it in that direction, they would.
 
Mëtal Bikër said:
New Labour might have 'ruined' the perception of Labour amongst socialists as a "socialist ideological party", but it did great wonders for the British people, which ideally is what we all want to see, right?

If New Labour helped more people than socialist Labour did, where is the problem?
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It’s an ideological problem, that is the problem.

Blair did a lot of good and a lot of bad imo.
 
blueinsa said:
99.99% I would wager.
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That's how far they have managed to infect the western world with there pernicious ideology. Its now almost seen as a thought crime to be anti- capitalist, that is how far they have infiltrated society with their think tanks like the TPA, the IEA and the CSJ. They dominate the media and have introduced so many new words into the political lexicon, all of them designed to insult the left, from the ridiculous notion of cultural Marxism to SJW and virtue signalling. All of this was designed so that the owners of capital kept increasing there share of capital and inequality in the UK now is appalling.
 
Rascal said:
That's how far they have managed to infect the western world with there pernicious ideology. Its now almost seen as a thought crime to be anti- capitalist, that is how far they have infiltrated society with their think tanks like the TPA, the IEA and the CSJ. They dominate the media and have introduced so many new words into the political lexicon, all of them designed to insult the left, from the ridiculous notion of cultural Marxism to SJW and virtue signalling. All of this was designed so that the owners of capital kept increasing there share of capital and inequality in the UK now is appalling.
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Is it capitalism you hate, or commercialism?

If it's the latter, I can empathise, but if its the former, I just see it as a denial of personal opportunities and personal growth to deny a system which affords such freedoms to the individual.
 
Mëtal Bikër said:
It's an old joke but; "Under Socialism, EVERYONE is equal... equally poor"
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The inequality line is pure guff imo.

If you had someone on £5m a year and someone on £50k a year, they’re very unequal but even the poorer chap is doing very well.

They highlight inequality and it’s a buzzword but the most important factor is what are those on the bottom line on? We have strides to make but we can do it in a capitalist system.

I think most are pretty happy as it stands and we need to tweak the system to help those who need it, more.
 
Ban-jani said:
The inequality line is pure guff imo.

If you had someone on £5m a year and someone on £50k a year, they’re very unequal but even the poorer chap is doing very well.

They highlight inequality and it’s a buzzword but the most important factor is what are those on the bottom line on? We have strides to make but we can do it in a capitalist system.

I think most are pretty happy as it stands and we need to tweak the system to help those who need it, more.
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Its the premise that capitalists are , by nature, not charitable, which couldn't be further from the truth.

Most charities have been helped by successful capitalists, and most inequalities have been as a result of commercialists who maximise profit over the welfare of their workers. For me, commercialism is the problem, not the capitalist system.
 
Personally I’ve found the more money I make and the higher up the chain I get, the less capitalist I feel, particularly as you really being to see it’s worst behaviours at work.

It’s like any system though, over time it has to be moderated to keep it in check. The discrepency now is getting so great at the top end, we’re returning to the pre war model levels of concentration of wealth. There will be a tipping point that will be overdue, as it always is, when it eventually comes.
 
Rascal said:
That's how far they have managed to infect the western world with there pernicious ideology. Its now almost seen as a thought crime to be anti- capitalist, that is how far they have infiltrated society with their think tanks like the TPA, the IEA and the CSJ. They dominate the media and have introduced so many new words into the political lexicon, all of them designed to insult the left, from the ridiculous notion of cultural Marxism to SJW and virtue signalling. All of this was designed so that the owners of capital kept increasing there share of capital and inequality in the UK now is appalling.
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sounds like a conspiracy...
 
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