Another new Brexit thread

[Mazzarelli's Swiss Cheese]

The real damage with this though is within the westminster bubble. Any back bench tory MP still clinging on to the hope that this is a respectable government that is going to do things the right way will have had a wake up call. The conversations in private will be a bit more pointed and the calculations of support shifting.

'do things the right way' - are they spending the coutinho money ;-)

 

[meltonblue]

Can’t see the House of Lords letting it get through cleanly either.

 

[BobKowalski]

The real damage with this though is within the westminster bubble. Any back bench tory MP still clinging on to the hope that this is a respectable government that is going to do things the right way will have had a wake up call. The conversations in private will be a bit more pointed and the calculations of support shifting.

It will be like Republicans under Trump, no matter how egregious the behaviour by Johnson and the Govt, the majority will fall into line.

The majority of people rarely make principled stands. They keep their heads down and mouths shut.

 

[Mazzarelli's Swiss Cheese]

Actually had time to do a bit of digging and reading about on these proposed changes. I think they are a lot less significant than either side of the debate are making out and it's a load of empty posturing tbh. I doesn't really amount to ripping up the WA or anything of the sort. The irish sea border stays, just a bit of state aid in theory allowed to NI companies. For those of you concerned about GFA, this is probably a good thing as it will allow us to prop up the NI economy a bit and avoid economic collapse which really would set the troubles alight again. It does have implications for some cross border customs checks, but this is where the EU probably need to wipe their fannies unless they want to build (and fund) a Trump style wall on their EU/UK border.

 

[BobKowalski]

Actually had time to do a bit of digging and reading about on these proposed changes. I think they are a lot less significant than either side of the debate are making out and it's a load of empty posturing tbh. I doesn't really amount to ripping up the WA or anything of the sort. The irish sea border stays, just a bit of state aid in theory allowed to NI companies. For those of you concerned about GFA, this is probably a good thing as it will allow us to prop up the NI economy a bit and avoid economic collapse which really would set the troubles alight again. It does have implications for some cross border customs checks, but this is where the EU probably need to wipe their fannies unless they want to build (and fund) a Trump style wall on their EU/UK border.

That‘s nice. I look forward to the EU passing their unilateral amendments, stating what they want to see in the WA and NI protocols. That will be fine won’t it? I mean everyone who signs a contract is always happy to see the other side making changes without talking it over first.

 

[Mazzarelli's Swiss Cheese]

That‘s nice. I look forward to the EU passing their unilateral amendments, stating what they want to see in the WA and NI protocols. That will be fine won’t it? I mean everyone who signs a contract is always happy to see the other side making changes without talking it over first.

Bob, why do you even bother. You are just so bitter and twisted. I was attempting to chat on here without the usual punch and judy rubbish as I thought you and Vic had gone to bed. Just look at the state of your post(s), it's all so extreme. I'm pretty entrenched in my views but I do at least sometimes make an effort to at least consider I might not be right all the time as I think my last post showed. You have a tiny scared mind and just can't cope with you or anyone else leaving little tightly defined boxes that you can get your head around. Pretty much anyone else on this thread is capable of normal interaction with each other away from it and sometimes even within it, but your bitterness about brexit infects your posts in your rare forays into other threads too. Have a shag, skin up, or get help, but somehow you need to escape the prison you have created.

 

[meltonblue]

Actually had time to do a bit of digging and reading about on these proposed changes. I think they are a lot less significant than either side of the debate are making out and it's a load of empty posturing tbh. I doesn't really amount to ripping up the WA or anything of the sort. The irish sea border stays, just a bit of state aid in theory allowed to NI companies. For those of you concerned about GFA, this is probably a good thing as it will allow us to prop up the NI economy a bit and avoid economic collapse which really would set the troubles alight again. It does have implications for some cross border customs checks, but this is where the EU probably need to wipe their fannies unless they want to build (and fund) a Trump style wall on their EU/UK border.

That’s not the right lens to be looking at this through though, as you’re focussing on the “what” when that’s essentially irrelevant, it’s about the “how”. That’s why people have already spoken out about it without knowing the detail.

I’d argue it must be of some significance though for us to be willing to break international law to implement it.

 

[Mazzarelli's Swiss Cheese]

That’s not the right lens to be looking at this through though, as you’re focussing on the “what” when that’s essentially irrelevant, it’s about the “how”. That’s why people have already spoken out about it without knowing the detail.

I’d argue it must be of some significance though for us to be willing to break international law to implement it.

Yes to be fair the detail is (as ever) sketchy, and I can't claim to have found the actual text of the proposed amendments. There are quite a number of hard brexiteers out there angry that this doesn't go far enough and doesn't represent substantive change - some comfort to those worried about no deal though.

 

[Gareth Barry Conlon]

That’s not the right lens to be looking at this through though, as you’re focussing on the “what” when that’s essentially irrelevant, it’s about the “how”. That’s why people have already spoken out about it without knowing the detail.

I’d argue it must be of some significance though for us to be willing to break international law to implement it.

The technicality is irrelevant. Its the precedent and the line in the sand crossed. The ERG are demanding that the whole thing gets ripped up. Is this a test case to see what the reaction is and to see what they can get away with. If this goes through then what next. Do they come back again and take something else out?

 

[meltonblue]

Yes to be fair the detail is (as ever) sketchy, and I can't claim to have found the actual text of the proposed amendments. There are quite a number of hard brexiteers out there angry that this doesn't go far enough and doesn't represent substantive change - some comfort to those worried about no deal though.

Agree about that. The concern is this is only about if there is no deal. If we do manage to get one, which I so hope we do, then this won’t even be needed. It’s a big hit on trust and ultimately respect internationally for something that may not even be utilised.

 

[meltonblue]

The technicality is irrelevant. Its the precedent and the line in the sand crossed. The ERG are demanding that the whole thing gets ripped up. Is this a test case to see what the reaction is and to see what they can get away with. If this goes through then what next. Do they come back again and take something else out?

Precisely, the detail doesn’t really matter. It’s the willingness to do it in this manner.

 

[Gareth Barry Conlon]

It will be like Republicans under Trump, no matter how egregious the behaviour by Johnson and the Govt, the majority will fall into line.

The majority of people rarely make principled stands. They keep their heads down and mouths shut.

We will see, some have spoken out already. And there are still many tories who think Boris Johnson is a ****. That was forgotten during the election campaign but how many of the new intake have had their views changed over the last 9 months having seen the reality of Westminster life.

 

[Mazzarelli's Swiss Cheese]

Tbh our international standing and trust is probably the least of our worries at present although I do take your point with regard to going back on our word. I also think / hope we'll get a deal and suspect there will be much posturing as well as a little give and take to allow both the EU and Boris to come out alive and claiming either victory or a well fought stalemate. That in itself should guarantee that the worst excess of hard / no deal brexit is avoided although its obviously always a risk.

 

[BobKowalski]

Bob, why do you even bother. You are just so bitter and twisted. I was attempting to chat on here without the usual punch and judy rubbish as I thought you and Vic had gone to bed. Just look at the state of your post(s), it's all so extreme. I'm pretty entrenched in my views but I do at least sometimes make an effort to at least consider I might not be right all the time as I think my last post showed. You have a tiny scared mind and just can't cope with you or anyone else leaving little tightly defined boxes that you can get your head around. Pretty much anyone else on this thread is capable of normal interaction with each other away from it and sometimes even within it, but your bitterness about brexit infects your posts in your rare forays into other threads too. Have a shag, skin up, or get help, but somehow you need to escape the prison you have created.

It passes the time.

 

[BobKowalski]

We will see, some have spoken out already. And there are still many tories who think Boris Johnson is a ****. That was forgotten during the election campaign but how many of the new intake have had their views changed over the last 9 months having seen the reality of Westminster life.

I hope you are right. I’m cynical when it comes to people speaking truth to power. Perhaps some will speak out, but the majority, if not all, will vote according to Party rather than principle.

 

[Vic]

A crack showing in tory unity over this one. You have the headbangers on one side thinking it's not enough and the whole WA should be ditched, and the sane tories who thing even a small breach of international law is completely unacceptable.

This could get very ugly, could be the first indication of where the power lies in the party. The ERG were always teh minority however many moderates and pro EU tories gave up and jacked it in at the last election. The new intake are an unknown quantity and we might get an inkling of their thoughts on the ultimate outcome over this issue.

I've refrained from bombarding our MP with stuff since the election but I've sent an email, "are you in favour of breaking international law, and ministers thereby breaking the ministerial code?"

 

[Vic]

We will fight them on the beaches.

For towels.

If the EU fishing states keep fishing within our 200 mile limit, who's going to stop them? And on what basis? "You are breaking international law"?

 

[Vic]

Bob, why do you even bother. You are just so bitter and twisted. I was attempting to chat on here without the usual punch and judy rubbish as I thought you and Vic had gone to bed. Just look at the state of your post(s), it's all so extreme. I'm pretty entrenched in my views but I do at least sometimes make an effort to at least consider I might not be right all the time as I think my last post showed. You have a tiny scared mind and just can't cope with you or anyone else leaving little tightly defined boxes that you can get your head around. Pretty much anyone else on this thread is capable of normal interaction with each other away from it and sometimes even within it, but your bitterness about brexit infects your posts in your rare forays into other threads too. Have a shag, skin up, or get help, but somehow you need to escape the prison you have created.

And that is "normal interaction", is it?

 

[Vic]

Agree about that. The concern is this is only about if there is no deal. If we do manage to get one, which I so hope we do, then this won’t even be needed. It’s a big hit on trust and ultimately respect internationally for something that may not even be utilised.

Essentially a threat to break the law in order to get what we want? A bit like terrorism.

(Pre-empting the outrage at the comparison, that's what Johnson wants to call peaceful direct action protests.)

 

[Vic]

We will see, some have spoken out already. And there are still many tories who think Boris Johnson is a ****. That was forgotten during the election campaign but how many of the new intake have had their views changed over the last 9 months having seen the reality of Westminster life.

Johnson made them all pledge as candidates to support his deal through Parliament. They did. They are no longer bound by the pledge to support Johnson, let alone Cummings who's spent his life trying to bend or break rules, and must now be wondering what allegiance they owe to the pair of liars who are proving so incompetent, and damaging to the UK's interests, and their interest in getting re-elected.

You'd hope.