Another new Brexit thread

[kevin horlocks wand]

Absolutely correct.
Chances are the FTA (if it happens) will be shit. But the Brexit sycophants will love it if Johnson hails it as a victory, which he obviously will.

I think most brexiteers will be a little cautious and make their own mind up .
they should also be even more cautious if boris hails it a victory

 

[west didsblue]

I think most brexiteers will be a little cautious and make their own mind up .
they should also be even more cautious if boris hails it a victory

Fully agree. I was just talking about the sycophants, which is a sizeable subset.

 

[Gareth Barry Conlon]

Johnson made them all pledge as candidates to support his deal through Parliament. They did. They are no longer bound by the pledge to support Johnson, let alone Cummings who's spent his life trying to bend or break rules, and must now be wondering what allegiance they owe to the pair of liars who are proving so incompetent, and damaging to the UK's interests, and their interest in getting re-elected.

You'd hope.

Will of the people my arse. We both know what the question was on that ballot, it just said leave the EU. Anyway, we are now out, and with captain clown in charge it's pretty much guaranteed to be a complete mess over the next few months as Johnson doesn't prepare for anything.

Who could have seen this coming?

 

[meltonblue]

More detail in the FT this morning. This is going to get very messy.

 

[Rascal]

Who said the following

"The first duty of the government is to uphold the law, if it tries to bob and weave and duck around that duty when it is inconvenient, if government does that, then so will the governed, and then nothing is safe, not home, not liberty, not life itself"

And

"Britain does not break treaties. It would be bad for Britain, bad for our relations with the rest of the world and bad for any future treaty on trade we may need to make"

 

[bluejon]

Who could have seen this coming?

An oven ready bellend.

 

[Saddleworth2]

I think the word ‘Sycophants’ should be banned on this thread.
It is always used to describe ‘those that do not agree with my position’ rather than It’s correct definition.

 

[inbetween]

Agreed. But it kind of sums up our problem with Brexit. The UK always had this belief that the EU would act in accordance with the plan we had scripted out for them. We vote for Brexit, we negotiate a deal ‘that is everyone’s interests’ because German carmakers and the EU sell us a lot of stuff and we can sort out the NI border because we will have this great new deal that everyone is happy with.

Except for four years the EU and the E27 countries declined to follow the path we had kindly mapped out for them. We never seemed to grasp that, like us, they are sovereign countries that are quite capable of deciding what their own best interests are and pursuing those interests accordingly. Interests that did not match what we felt was best for them.

The problem is not that the EU do not see us as a sovereign independent country. The problem is that we don’t think 27 sovereign countries should put their interests above our own.

If people think the UK is right to unilaterally change an international agreement as an independent sovereign country then 27 other independent sovereign countries also have the right to make unilateral changes to benefit them. And if both sides are making unilateral changes then you don’t really have a deal and there is no point in signing another one.

Brexit has in essence been a mass data science exercise where the truth and reality has been distorted to align to peoples fears, prejudices and also the things they want but can't be delivered. The things people want though cannot be achieved because there is a reality or compromise that no-one is prepared to accept.

This government is an extension of that exercise, U-turning and shaping itself to public opinion but actually like the Brexit negotiations, it has so far achieved absolutely nothing because it can't be done. The only goal moving forwards and the plan for afterwards is who to blame so that the carousel continues.

What has happened so far is equivalent to promising to make everyone a millionaire whilst also convincing everyone that it is those opposing the policy who are at fault for the money not arriving. It's an infinite loop of mindless, illogical belief basically.

 

[bluejon]

Who said the following

"The first duty of the government is to uphold the law, if it tries to bob and weave and duck around that duty when it is inconvenient, if government does that, then so will the governed, and then nothing is safe, not home, not liberty, not life itself"

And

"Britain does not break treaties. It would be bad for Britain, bad for our relations with the rest of the world and bad for any future treaty on trade we may need to make"

Danny Tiatto?

 

[Vic]

...

Johnson is a clown with no understanding of detail - thankfully he seems to have people around/behind him that do understand detail and have nerve and grit
...

Nerve and grit to conceal their intentions from the electorate. Liars and cowards.

 

[Vic]

Agreed. But it kind of sums up our problem with Brexit. The UK always had this belief that the EU would act in accordance with the plan we had scripted out for them. We vote for Brexit, we negotiate a deal ‘that is everyone’s interests’ because German carmakers and the EU sell us a lot of stuff and we can sort out the NI border because we will have this great new deal that everyone is happy with.

Except for four years the EU and the E27 countries declined to follow the path we had kindly mapped out for them. We never seemed to grasp that, like us, they are sovereign countries that are quite capable of deciding what their own best interests are and pursuing those interests accordingly. Interests that did not match what we felt was best for them.

The problem is not that the EU do not see us as a sovereign independent country. The problem is that we don’t think 27 sovereign countries should put their interests above our own.

If people think the UK is right to unilaterally change an international agreement as an independent sovereign country then 27 other independent sovereign countries also have the right to make unilateral changes to benefit them. And if both sides are making unilateral changes then you don’t really have a deal and there is no point in signing another one.

And - any deal now has to be ratified by all 27 parliaments, which we could have avoided.

 

[Vic]

Who could have seen this coming?

They'll say he was lying then.

 

[mcfc1632]

I think most brexiteers will be a little cautious and make their own mind up .
they should also be even more cautious if boris hails it a victory

I think most Brexiteers should take note of the advice in this article:

TCW’s Brexit Watch: Johnson can indeed rip up the Withdrawal Agreement - The Conservative Woman

TCW’s Brexit Watch: Johnson can indeed rip up the Withdrawal Agreement

conservativewoman.co.uk

It certainly echoes my thinking - and those with direct experience of managing major negotiations will know that when the other party suggest that it might be a good idea to reduce tension by switching out the lead negotiators - that is a sure sign they are on that back foot and concerned about the effectiveness of your lead.

I have said for months that Johnson is the weak link and I just hope that he keeps out of direct involvement and just supports Frost and others - let's hope his vanity does not lead him to get involved with von der Leyden directly - like he did with Varadkar - that would not be good.

The UK has ended up in a place where the EU now have to recognise the size of the majority the government holds which means that they can be confident in bringing forward primary legislation - they will be dismayed after enjoying all those years of Remainer duplicity at Westminster.

Johnson just needs to hold his nerve and let professionals lead on this - and please FFS not get personally involved

 

[BobKowalski]

Nicola doth speak...absolute gift for the SNP. No longer just about independence but reneging on devolution and a UK Govt that breaks the law.

‘The Internal Market Bill that the U.K. government will publish today is a full frontal assault on devolution. And to the usual “but the SNP would say that” voices, read the Welsh Government view, rightly referring to the Bill ‘stealing’ powers from the devolved govts.

At forthcoming @ScotParl elections, @theSNP will make case for independence. And more and more this is not about independence v the status quo of devolution. It’s about independence as the only way to protect the Scottish Parliament from being undermined and its powers eroded.

And added to all of the above, this is a Bill that, by the government’s own admission, breaks international law. This UK gov is the most reckless (& to make it worse, incompetently so) and unprincipled in my lifetime. Scotland can do better and we will have that choice.’

 

[Rascal]

Danny Tiatto?

Close, the 2nd name does begin with T

 

[BobKowalski]

Close, the 2nd name does begin with T

Thatcher.

 

[Gareth Barry Conlon]

Nicola doth speak...absolute gift for the SNP. No longer just about independence but reneging on devolution and a UK Govt that breaks the law.

‘The Internal Market Bill that the U.K. government will publish today is a full frontal assault on devolution. And to the usual “but the SNP would say that” voices, read the Welsh Government view, rightly referring to the Bill ‘stealing’ powers from the devolved govts.

At forthcoming @ScotParl elections, @theSNP will make case for independence. And more and more this is not about independence v the status quo of devolution. It’s about independence as the only way to protect the Scottish Parliament from being undermined and its powers eroded.

And added to all of the above, this is a Bill that, by the government’s own admission, breaks international law. This UK gov is the most reckless (& to make it worse, incompetently so) and unprincipled in my lifetime. Scotland can do better and we will have that choice.’

I'm no fan of Scots Independance but you cant argue with it. The SNP will go from strenth to strength under a Boris government but of course he can just hold them off - it will be his sucessors as PM that will have to deal with the fall out.

 

[Vic]

I think most Brexiteers should take note of the advice in this article:

TCW’s Brexit Watch: Johnson can indeed rip up the Withdrawal Agreement - The Conservative Woman

TCW’s Brexit Watch: Johnson can indeed rip up the Withdrawal Agreement

conservativewoman.co.uk

It certainly echoes my thinking - and those with direct experience of managing major negotiations will know that when the other party suggest that it might be a good idea to reduce tension by switching out the lead negotiators - that is a sure sign they are on that back foot and concerned about the effectiveness of your lead.

I have said for months that Johnson is the weak link and I just hope that he keeps out of direct involvement and just supports Frost and others - let's hope his vanity does not lead him to get involved with von der Leyden directly - like he did with Varadkar - that would not be good.

The UK has ended up in a place where the EU now have to recognise the size of the majority the government holds which means that they can be confident in bringing forward primary legislation - they will be dismayed after enjoying all those years of Remainer duplicity at Westminster.

Johnson just needs to hold his nerve and let professionals lead on this - and please FFS not get personally involved

The more you write, the less relevant it gets.

 

[journolud]

All this indignant outrage - Delicious

So many butthurt and not able to understand why its all going tits for them

Oh - and that **** Bercow - don't hear much from him anymore;-)

Is that because he is retired and doing other things?

 

[Vic]

I'm no fan of Scots Independance but you cant argue with it. The SNP will go from strenth to strength under a Boris government but of course he can just hold them off - it will be his sucessors as PM that will have to deal with the fall out.

No. How can he hold them off? In a limited way, the Scottish Parliament will ignore UK law, and have their own referendum. That apparently is the new legal defence. I only broke the Referendums Act in a limited way.