Another new Brexit thread

[mcfc1632]

You are correct and not misunderstanding anything.
Factortame is one good example of why.

Landmarks in law: the 90s fishing case that stoked UK Euroscepticism

Before Factortame, some UK politicians hadn’t fully grasped the power of EU law over parliament

www.theguardian.com

Indeed - good reminder - and as is pointed out:

"After the judgments, says Pannick, there was no longer any excuse for ignorance."

 

[mcfc1632]

Australia type deal. Every time they use that term they reveal their deep cynicism And dishonesty.

You will find no arguments from me on that

I have been clear on my views on the main players in this government

They have only one redeeming feature about them - but it is a fucking stonkingly important one

 

[mcfc1632]

In effect, yes. The very act of leaving the EU proves we are sovereign. It is ultimately our choice to stay or leave. To abide by common rules or not.

Scotland is not sovereign as it cannot unilaterally decide to make the choice to stay or leave our Union. It needs the consent of another Govt based in a different country before it can ask its people.

This is pretty disingenuous?

Yes - we have acted to leave the EU - and once we have fully left - should that ever actually be allowed - then we will be free to act as a fully sovereign nation

We have not been able to act as a fully sovereign whilst a being a member of the EU

But to do that - we need to fully leave the EU - and not be subject to the EU dictating/controlling key UK policies

 

[mcfc1632]

As a sovereign nation it is our choice to how much we integrate with other European nations. We can choose to integrate at the level we do now or reduce it to zero.

What the EU wants is irrelevant because they cannot impose that decision on us. They can make options for integration more attractive or punitive, which is their sovereign choice, but they cannot dictate that decision.

The UK is fully sovereign, even to the extent of allowing the EU economic writ to operate in NI. Ultimately, it was our choice to allow that. It could not be imposed. The only imposition of measures on countries that are contrary to those countries wishes is being done by the UK Govt.

You are simply waffling bob

Hiding behind irrelevant distraction that stands up to zero scrutiny

The test of sovereignty is being able to act as a sovereign nation - with the EU able to dictate to the UK in key policy areas we are not able to act as a sovereign nation

You are actually right in 2 areas - but they just prove that overall your stance is nonsense.

You are right that the choice to join the EU was an act of sovereignty

You are right that the choice to leave the EU was an act of sovereignty

But there is the rub - we have had to leave the EU to fully regain our sovereignty and therefore did not fully have it during the intervening decades

Once we have left - given the words you have used in your posts - we will have regained our ability to act as a sovereign nation

 

[jaseirai]

You are simply waffling bob

Hiding behind irrelevant distraction that stands up to zero scrutiny

The test of sovereignty is being able to act as a sovereign nation - with the EU able to dictate to the UK in key policy areas we are not able to act as a sovereign nation

You are actually right in 2 areas - but they just prove that overall your stance is nonsense.

You are right that the choice to join the EU was a act of sovereignty

You are right that the choice to leave the EU was a act of sovereignty

But there is the rub - we have had to leave the EU to fully regain our sovereignty and therefore did not fully have it during the intervening decades

Once we have left - given the words you have used in your posts - we will have regained our ability to act as a sovereign nation

Circular arguments dressed up in legalese via Google is the favoured tactic. When presented with facts and factortames, the silence is deafening.

 

[Saddleworth2]

You will find no arguments from me on that

I have been clear on my views on the main players in this government

They have only one redeeming feature about them - but it is a fucking stonkingly important one

Don't you ever, in your heart of hearts, in the wee small hours when you can't sleep and you toss and turn, ever think it might have been nice to achieve that 'fucking stonkingly important one' without the cynicism and dishonesty? To treat the electorate as adults and tell them a balanced, fact based truth. And before the pile on, lies were told on both sides, I know that.

 

[mcfc1632]

Circular arguments dressed up in legalese via Google is the favoured tactic. When presented with facts and factortames, the silence is deafening.

But you would have to be simply in thrall to the EU or in thrall to Bob not to see the stances put forward are just utter nonsense.

You will not be surprised to hear that there are people on here that fit both those descriptions

 

[Gareth Barry Conlon]

Agree with that, i have been saying for a wile the deal will not be good, its a worst of all worlds (except tarifs that come with no deal). We will have to follow EU rules broadly and they will have a mechanism to sanction us if we fall short. And in exchange we get zero tariffs (and some stuff on fishing) but the cost of dropping out of the CU totally wipes out any benefit. Longer term brexit is a massive win for the EU in financial services / professional services / science / manufacturing. We will never compensate for the losses in those sectors with increased trade to the rest of the world and the cost of implementing the changes required in dropping out of the EU will be a massive burden on top of negative impact of trade. Rather than get angry about fish I would think the EU are shocked at how stupid a move it is on our part.

Knowing its a bad deal. The government are maximising the drama and the talk of no deal so that we feel relief when this deal is done. The reality is that the deal could have been done months ago but as with everything brexit the longer you look at the detail the worse it looks. So a last minute deal with zero scrutiny plays best. In fact slagging of the EU is the only political capital in brexit. And Johnson will look to milk it as a massive victory as we avoided no deal and try to play that card where the likes of farage and some ERG nutters will denounce it as a failure.

The deal is done. The negotiation now is with the head bangers who are going to hate it because it is a deal (its a bad one but not for the reasons they think - in fact its an incredibly small number of no dealers that have driven us to this shit outcome). The only thing of note is to see how they react. How many of them rebel and call him out for his shit deal that would be a worse deal if they had there way.

 

[BobKowalski]

This is pretty disingenuous?

Yes - we have acted to leave the EU - and once we have fully left - should that ever actually be allowed - then we will be free to act as a fully sovereign nation

We have not been able to act as a fully sovereign whilst a being a member of the EU

But to do that - we need to fully leave the EU - and not be subject to the EU dictating/controlling key UK policies

No.

 

[mcfc1632]

Don't you ever, in your heart of hearts, in the wee small hours when you can't sleep and you toss and turn, ever think it might have been nice to achieve that 'fucking stonkingly important one' without the cynicism and dishonesty? To treat the electorate as adults and tell them a balanced, fact based truth. And before the pile on, lies were told on both sides, I know that.

I will go much further than that.

I would much prefer the management of leaving the EU to have been led by almost any PM other than the utterly spineless May and the utter buffoon Johnson

You will find this strange to hear perhaps - but if Corbyn had been free from the London elite clique (aka EU sycophants) that dominated Labour, then I would have preferred him to lead the exit from the EU.

Because he at least would have understood the value of being free of EU regulations to implement genuinely socialist policies. The important thing is to get the UK clear of the EU.

It really fucks me off that a lot of people on here simply do not understand some fundamentals of being free of EU membership and able to chart the course of a genuinely independent nation - be it to the left, right or centre. they can see no further than the current government.

If Corbyn had led the UK for 5 years following Brexit - clearly committed to Brexit and the socialist policies it could enable and he was then re-elected - great, they must have been seen to have been successful. I would just like him to have ensured that there had been 5 years genuinely committed to making Brexit a success - and that could not happen given his front bench.

Same with the blonde buffoon - I strongly doubt he will be re-elected - so I am left just hoping that he will put enough distance between the UK and the EU that re-joining is not a viable option in 2024.

It fucks me off that there are so many Tory haters on here (not aimed at you) that cannot see past their instinctive neeeed to see Brexit as a Tory thing. If it had been a socialist (genuine not the faux bollocks we see so much of) then they would be four-square behind it. That is the inconsistency of so many on here which for me invalidates a lot of stuff posted.

It is not just a Tory thing - is way beyond either party - it is a once in a lifetime opportunity to protect the future health of the UK - it will not (be allowed to) come again.

It is the Leave supporters that have been so badly let down by the Tory government for 3 years after the vote - we have more reason to be livid with them than Remainers.

 

[BobKowalski]

You are simply waffling bob

Hiding behind irrelevant distraction that stands up to zero scrutiny

The test of sovereignty is being able to act as a sovereign nation - with the EU able to dictate to the UK in key policy areas we are not able to act as a sovereign nation

You are actually right in 2 areas - but they just prove that overall your stance is nonsense.

You are right that the choice to join the EU was a act of sovereignty

You are right that the choice to leave the EU was a act of sovereignty

But there is the rub - we have had to leave the EU to fully regain our sovereignty and therefore did not fully have it during the intervening decades

Once we have left - given the words you have used in your posts - we will have regained our ability to act as a sovereign nation

No. You are confusing control with sovereignty. We have always been sovereign. The UK is a sovereign territory. That the UK agrees to pass control on regulation of chemicals or overseas trade or whatever is a sovereign decision. Taking back control in these areas is a sovereign decision.

The decision itself is sovereign, the day to day application of a sovereign competence is administrative.

 

[Vic]

You are correct and not misunderstanding anything.
Factortame is one good example of why.

Landmarks in law: the 90s fishing case that stoked UK Euroscepticism

Before Factortame, some UK politicians hadn’t fully grasped the power of EU law over parliament

www.theguardian.com

But it was our sovereign Parliament that legislated to have the ECJ as the arbitrator in such matters (and meant Brits could go to the ECJ to enforce EU law in our favour). It will be our sovereign Parliament (or ministers under royal prerogative) signing treaties that include means of arbitration.

I suppose the Geneva conventions are a betrayal of sovereignty.

 

[mcfc1632]

No. You are confusing control with sovereignty. We have always been sovereign. The UK is a sovereign territory. That the UK agrees to pass control on regulation of chemicals or overseas trade or whatever is a sovereign decision. Taking back control in these areas is a sovereign decision.

The decision itself is sovereign, the day to day application of a sovereign competence is administrative.

Bob - I understand the convoluted/technical/pedantic waffle that you are hiding behind

But most of us live in the real world

And in the real world - especially in recent decades - the UK has not been able to act as a truly sovereign nation due to the scope of what was deceitfully signed away through EU treaties.

But that is enough from me on this nonsense - if others cannot see it for the nonsense it is - they must be exercising their sovereign choice not to

 

[Vic]

As some say - simples

Sovereignty is as sovereignty does

and if you have had to hand over control of key domestic policy to a supranational body - you are not a fully sovereign state

Don't worry - you are not alone in understanding the simplicity of this

But it isn't simple. It's about 35 years since I did my crash course on international relations and I may still have the notes on the concept of sovereignty, but it was not simple. Good grief - just look at the wikipedia entry.

 

[jaseirai]

But it was our sovereign Parliament that legislated to have the ECJ as the arbitrator in such matters (and meant Brits could go to the ECJ to enforce EU law in our favour). It will be our sovereign Parliament (or ministers under royal prerogative) signing treaties that include means of arbitration.

I suppose the Geneva conventions are a betrayal of sovereignty.

I knew you would be unable to resist but you'll have to take this up with Lord Pannick

Crossbench peer and barrister Lord Pannick says that Factortame was “the most significant decision of United Kingdom courts on EU law”. “It brought home to lawyers, politicians and the public in this jurisdiction that EU law really did have supremacy over acts of parliament,” he says.

 

[Vic]

You are simply waffling bob

Hiding behind irrelevant distraction that stands up to zero scrutiny

The test of sovereignty is being able to act as a sovereign nation - with the EU able to dictate to the UK in key policy areas we are not able to act as a sovereign nation

You are actually right in 2 areas - but they just prove that overall your stance is nonsense.

You are right that the choice to join the EU was a act of sovereignty

You are right that the choice to leave the EU was a act of sovereignty

But there is the rub - we have had to leave the EU to fully regain our sovereignty and therefore did not fully have it during the intervening decades

Once we have left - given the words you have used in your posts - we will have regained our ability to act as a sovereign nation

But there in the last sentence is why it's not simple. Trying not to twist words but doesn't that mean a distinction between being a sovereign nation (which we never ceased to be) and being able to act in ways which we couldn't while we were under an international treaty that as a sovereign nation we chose to sign (one of many thousands)? Does any treaty of cooperation diminish sovereignty?

(Don't forget Churchill's wartime plan for an indissoluble union of Britain and France. It would be quite a good essay topic - discuss that in terms of sovereignty.)

 

[Vic]

Bob - I understand the convoluted/technical/pedantic waffle that you are hiding behind

But most of us live in the real world

And in the real world - especially in recent decades - the UK has not been able to act as a truly sovereign nation due to the scope of what was deceitfully signed away through EU treaties.

But that is enough from me on this nonsense - if others cannot see it for the nonsense it is - they must be exercising their sovereign choice not to

Perhaps we shouldn't have made that sovereign decision to join the USA in invading Iraq.

 

[Vic]

I knew you would be unable to resist but you'll have to take this up with Lord Pannick

Crossbench peer and barrister Lord Pannick says that Factortame was “the most significant decision of United Kingdom courts on EU law”. “It brought home to lawyers, politicians and the public in this jurisdiction that EU law really did have supremacy over acts of parliament,” he says.

But that supremacy of EU law (in interpretation of EU law*) was our sovereign choice. It really did not affect most people's lives, and if it did it was likely to their benefit (workers' rights etc).

* in most cases it was UK law because our sovereign Parliament legislated EU directives into UK law.

 

[jaseirai]

But that supremacy of EU law (in interpretation of EU law*) was our sovereign choice. It really did not affect most people's lives, and if it did it was likely to their benefit (workers' rights etc).

* in most cases it was UK law because our sovereign Parliament legislated EU directives into UK law.

That makes no difference. Once we’ve left it won’t. Go back and read how this conversation started and why I replied.

 

[BobKowalski]

Bob - I understand the convoluted/technical/pedantic waffle that you are hiding behind

But most of us live in the real world

And in the real world - especially in recent decades - the UK has not been able to act as a truly sovereign nation due to the scope of what was deceitfully signed away through EU treaties.

But that is enough from me on this nonsense - if others cannot see it for the nonsense it is - they must be exercising their sovereign choice not to

By signed away, you mean voluntary ceded administrative control of various sovereign competences, which on 31st December 2020 it will take back, unless any signed agreement with the EU dictates otherwise.

The key words are ‘signed away’. If you sign a contract then, not unreasonably, you abide by the terms of that contract.