This desire for the future direction of our country to be negotiated by an unelected bureaucrat without the involvement of the elected leadership of the country is utterly bizarre, and displays complete hypocrisy when considering that one of the main reasons quoted for leaving the EU in the first place is to get away from being told what to do by unelected bureaucrats.I think that this is a really balanced and realistic post.
What you are saying is, my guess I admit, likely the experience of the vast majority of people - including posters on here.
The main Remain posters seem to haunt all the political threads and they come across to me as akin to political activists - I would expect that they haunt other places as well to ensure that they can reaffirm their views with like-minded people
But back in the real world - most people are not obsessing about Brexit and are not greatly impacted by it
Back on the 'deal' though - I have been saying for months that we need Johnson to keep the fuck out of the negotiations. I do worry though that he will get involved and fuck up the good work of Frost.
Hope I am wrong
Oh - I don't knowThat might explain the conspicuous lack of bloviation on this thread recently.
Why on earth would you think that I would think that?Surely you don’t think Frost gets to act unilaterally in these negotiations?! The second Johnson demands a deal (as he surely will) then what Frost thinks is completely irrelevant.
Certainly less irritating for all of us who haven't missed your avoiding any actual argument.Oh - I don't know
I have caught up as far as last Monday and the thread is full of it from yourself and the same old same old cadre working yourselves into a frenzy
Proper amusing to see - doing catch-up is certainly less irritating than 'being live'
I was surprised at your misunderstanding of what I had posted last night but put it down to being late after a disappointing result - I was also a bit tired and not thinking straight so thought it better to respond in the morningAgreed, it’s nonsensical to think that Johnson would “keep the fuck out of negotiations” at this late stage.
Good grief. 5 weeks to go and you think they're still following the fallback/realistic/ideal options from the Ladybird Book of Negotiations. You've already given up the ideal on fishing by saying what a good job Frost has done in conceding a three year transition.Why on earth would you think that I would think that?
The way these things work is that Frost will have had a significant number of professionals working to him. They will have been brigaded into workstreams and progressing all areas - with him as the Lead Negotiator. He will have been managing the workstreams - each will have their own lead - to achieve the best positions in each area from pre-determined outcomes in a range between Fallback - Realistic and Ideal.
Barnier will have been doing the same but has had the benefit of 3 years head start because he was facing off against the hapless Robbins. That is why we ended up with the WA and the unfettered backstop. Securing the unfettered backstop would have caused Barnier to have to establish a new category as Ideal simply will not have covered it - Utopian might do the trick.
Frost will report to a governance group which will of course include Johnson and others - who will make decisions/give direction against the detail that Frost brings back and the decisions on policy that. That group will have been influenced by a number of factors - and stakeholders and in this regard there has been casualties recently in the ranks that would keep Johnson away from 'unilateral' (aka utterly inept and stupid) involvement and personal decisions.
What I have said - many times - is that I really hope that Johnson 'does not get involved' and I have explained what I mean - e.g. that I hope there are no more examples such as him walking around the grounds with Varadkar - I was/am very concerned when I hear that he has calls scheduled von der Leyen
So Frost will have done all the excellent work in a structured and professional manner, but Johnson is a fuckwit that could fuck it up. I worry that Johnson will bottle it and act unilaterally - not the other way round
Yes, just read that. Thanks for clarifying. Assuming a deal is done, it’ll be interesting to see if Johnson tries to take the credit for getting it over the line, or attempts to distance himself to avoid the ire of the ERG over the inevitable concessions we’ll have to make.I was surprised at your misunderstanding of what I had posted last night but put it down to being late after a disappointing result - I was also a bit tired and not thinking straight
I have just explained what I meant - as I have previously on a number of occasions - so hopefully that clears things up
Their share price will plummet when the Remain experts on Bluemoon are proven right and they have not been planning properly.Lurpak themselves seem to be clear that brexit/end of transition with or without a deal won't make any difference to sales/imports? I'm not sure how this can be, but I'm guessing they have given it some thought.
He will of course seek to take credit - it is his natureYes, just read that. Thanks for clarifying. Assuming a deal is done, it’ll be interesting to see if Johnson tries to take the credit for getting it over the line, or attempts to distance himself to avoid the ire of the ERG over the inevitable concessions we’ll have to make.
Just a bit more on my comments on Johnson 'fucking things up'.....Yes, just read that. Thanks for clarifying. Assuming a deal is done, it’ll be interesting to see if Johnson tries to take the credit for getting it over the line, or attempts to distance himself to avoid the ire of the ERG over the inevitable concessions we’ll have to make.
For the avoidance of doubt - this is meant as a well-intended comment - things get misunderstood on here.......I am working on a 6 month temporary contract at the moment and am 2 months in...... I have more confidence about my future than those poor sods who work in that big distribution plant just off the M62 can have.
Good grief. "Having the increased quotas now is not of great value - we do not have the fleets etc. - in fact all the points that Remainers have been banging on about fishing for years". So I was right...He will of course seek to take credit - it is his nature
I just hope that the drafting of the legal texts are so well advanced in most areas that the EU will not have chance to readily unpick the detail. This will mean that his compromises will largely be in the LPF area.
Strangely it might seem - another area of compromise for me would be the securing of a greater quota of fishing for the UK/less for the EU - I have been hoping for that to be too hard a nut to crack and we agree a 3 or 5 year accommodation to continue the same conditions as at present.
Some Remainers have not been able to understand this from a negotiating POV, but the reason I would prefer that is that we have used the 'fishing card well' this last year since we have dumped the amateurs. By getting an agreement to hold off and continue as-is for 3-5 years we would essentially be banking the gains achieved during 2020 and then having the opportunity to 'do it all again' in 3-5 years.
Having the increased quotas now is not of great value - we do not have the fleets etc. - in fact all the points that Remainers have been banging on about fishing for years - just they have been only living in the past and not able to look to the future. So if we have extra quotas and no capacity - we may end up flogging them etc. but if we defer the change then we can spend 3-5 years investing in the industry and having a much stronger hand in future negotiations.
It is a win-win outcome for the UK.
Interesting that the most vocal proponent of Brexit on here now seems to be claiming that backing down on LPF and fish will be some sort of victory for the Brexit project. Especially as these were the two areas that we were supposed to be standing firm on. Entirely predictable.This will mean that his compromises will largely be in the LPF area.
..another area of compromise for me would be the securing of a greater quota of fishing for the UK/less for the EU
It is a win-win outcome for the UK.
I did not get past the first para and you suggesting that you were right - so the rest must just be crapGood grief. "Having the increased quotas now is not of great value - we do not have the fleets etc. - in fact all the points that Remainers have been banging on about fishing for years". So I was right...
I'd be more impressed if you'd admitted any of this before your hero Frost came up with the 3 year transition. And while it does make sense to have a transition, to limit the damage to EU fleets and to our exporters, it's very optimistic to think we will build up our fleets - not without foreign investment and foreign crews. At the end of the three years it may just be obvious that we have a weaker hand.
But really, "having the opportunity to 'do it all again' in 3-5 years"? That's not an opportunity, it's confirmation that you do have to be thick to think we'd "get Brexit done" that easily.
Interesting that the most vocal proponent of Brexit on here now seems to be claiming that backing down on LPF and fish will be some sort of victory for the Brexit project. Especially as these were the two areas that we were supposed to be standing firm on. Entirely predictable.
You have to laugh.
For the Leavers on here:
For us - the emerging outcome may be more, same, or less than we would have expected as the last 4 years have unfolded.
I would suggest that - given the position that the UK was placed in 14months ago by Robbins/May - we will absolutely be better off than we would have been if the WA, especially with the unfettered backstop, along with the PD had been allowed to be implemented.
Already the legal texts have been largely drafted and will not be getting changed and on the 3 areas of contention - there has been movement from the EU in all 3 - so at the very least we are getting a better outcome that looked possible 14months ago.
So Leavers should take the a good degree of comfort - even if there is unpalpable movement in the closing stages (that is the nature of negotiations) - these will reflect movement between our ideal - fallback positions. I wish that we had put someone of Frost's calibre in control of negotiations in 2017.
It is telling that there are reports in France and other EU countries of concern that Barnier is going too far in giving ground to the UK due to his desire to leave a legacy (he is beyond the mandatory retirement age)
Anyway - I think that I will slip back into catch-up mode - as I said it is more satisfying than dealing with the real-time nonsense.
Not by me, but, looking to the future, the answer is a resounding yes IMOWill it be better than what we had tho .... thats what was promised
Not by me, but, looking to the future, the answer is a resounding yes IMO
Now that the PD is scrapped and some aspects of the WA have gone and others possibly/hopefully stymied.
So long as Johnson does not fully collapse. And why would you possibly want that??
Surely, all UK citizens should, at this point in time, be of the view - if only we had Frost in post in 2017
I mean on the basis that we have now left and we are seeking to get the best for the UK going forwards
Get a grip man.....But ... But .... those sunny uplands ... the promises of the lying Tories ... the Promises of the lying leave parties ... where the fuck are the unicorns you lot promised.