The Scottish Politics thread

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Vicious111 said:
Did the oil in the North sea move to the English channel overnight?
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Why is this so hard for you to understand. This isnt Scottish oil, anymore than its all London's cash that the finance industry brings in down there. Its the UKs money. Scotland isnt an undependent sovereign state. You havent been for over 300 years.

I certainly won't bother getting into discussion about the oil revenue break even point and UK subsidies in the north sea oil industry with you if you are unable to grasp the above simple point. Have a good day.
 
Mazzarelli's Swiss Cheese said:
I agree that without brexit the debate around another referendum may not exist, but you also have to take this in the context of the SNP being desperate to constantly raise their single issue for existence to the top of the agenda. I personally don't see the current success of the SNP as either a ringing endorsement of remain or independence per se, but rather an expression by the Scottish electorate of their disdain for the current state of the two main Westminster options.
The SNP are an effective campaign group, but not as effective in government as they pretend to be once you scratch below the surface. If they become the govt of an independent Scotland they lose both their reason to exist (see Farage post brexit), and also their current get out of jail card of blaming Westminster for their own failings in govt.
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A succinct and very apt post.
 
blueparrot said:
That’s obviously nonsense, there’s a reason they have been in government for 12 years and look like ‘breaking’ the system again in spring for a second time increasing their vote and winning an overall majority. You don’t do that by being a single issue campaign group.
Comparisons to Farage equally ridiculous. They have governed and ran the economy and services for years unlike Farage. Even after losing a referendum they were re-elected.Have they done it all well? Thats another matter but to keep winning elections then I’d say they have done it to more peoples satisfaction than not.
Comparing the SNP to the Brexit party shows a total lack of understanding of Scottish politics and the parties.
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Interesting to see how the SNP would fare if they were governing Scotland on the same money as the English Regions. I doubt they would be so popular? They say the Scots are a canny people. And theres no denying Sturgeon plays her cards well.
 
Churchlawtonblue said:
Why is this so hard for you to understand. This isnt Scottish oil, anymore than its all London's cash that the finance industry brings in down there. Its the UKs money. Scotland isnt an undependent sovereign state. You havent been for over 300 years.

I certainly won't bother getting into discussion about the oil revenue break even point and UK subsidies in the north sea oil industry with you if you are unable to grasp the above simple point. Have a good day.
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I wouldn't mind but there's hardly any oil left and there's a good debate to be had about whether it's the right thing to do to extract the tiny amount that remains.
 
Fame Monster said:
I wouldn't mind but there's hardly any oil left and there's a good debate to be had about whether it's the right thing to do to extract the tiny amount that remains.
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Scottish oil revenue is like Lord Percy's savings seen it, pinched it, spent it.

Percy: Do not despair! For I have some small savings carefully harvested from my weekly allowance, set aside against my frail old age. By lucky haps, it is just over a thousand, methinks, and for years has been hidden beyond the wit of any thief, in

A great memorable quote from the Blackadder show on Quotes.net
www.quotes.net www.quotes.net
 
Churchlawtonblue said:
Interesting to see how the SNP would fare if they were governing Scotland on the same money as the English Regions. I doubt they would be so popular? They say the Scots are a canny people. And theres no denying Sturgeon plays her cards well.
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It probably hasn’t crossed your mind but the area of Scotland is around five times the size of NW England. The road length is about double. The coastline is probably 30 times longer than NW England. That’s comparing two areas with a similar population. Do you not think it might cost a bit more to provide services to an area that is so much bigger in area?
 
Churchlawtonblue said:
Interesting to see how the SNP would fare if they were governing Scotland on the same money as the English Regions. I doubt they would be so popular? They say the Scots are a canny people. And theres no denying Sturgeon plays her cards well.
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Still on that old bandwagon,Well if she got independence she wouldn’t be on the same money as the regions.Though with covid out of date now the sustainable growth commision report gives a clear idea of how they see the economy long term. Whether you agree with it or not, and the SNP disagree with parts of it, it’s at least laid out there for all to see.
The point isn’t why they are popular still, it’s the fact they are governing with policies on health, welfare ,social care, education, the whole lot, something Farage and hibp never had.
In fact farage ‘s plan for brexit was to scare the tories into a referendum based on fear of losing votes and seats nothing more.
The SNP set out right at the start of devolution when the fear was Labour majorities for ever, hence the system was set up to prevent that.They knew the only way to independece was governing, they knew the only way to govern was to convince Scots that didn’t support independence they wee fit to govern, and then persuade on independence .
They couldn't be a one policy party, they needed to be a proper party. They have succeded in that, they hadn’t succeeded in convincing Scotland to back independence. They needed Brexit and Johnson to finally push that argument into possibility.
 
blueparrot said:
Still on that old bandwagon,Well if she got independence she wouldn’t be on the same money as the regions.Though with covid out of date now the sustainable growth commision report gives a clear idea of how they see the economy long term. Whether you agree with it or not, and the SNP disagree with parts of it, it’s at least laid out there for all to see.
The point isn’t why they are popular still, it’s the fact they are governing with policies on health, welfare ,social care, education, the whole lot, something Farage and hibp never had.
In fact farage ‘s plan for brexit was to scare the tories into a referendum based on fear of losing votes and seats nothing more.
The SNP set out right at the start of devolution when the fear was Labour majorities for ever, hence the system was set up to prevent that.They knew the only way to independece was governing, they knew the only way to govern was to convince Scots that didn’t support independence they wee fit to govern, and then persuade on independence .
They couldn't be a one policy party, they needed to be a proper party. They have succeded in that, they hadn’t succeeded in convincing Scotland to back independence. They needed Brexit and Johnson to finally push that argument into possibility.
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Sorry i appear to be banging on about disparity in expenditure. Fairness in something i'm quite keen on in society. Obviously its not as important to some if they have the largest slice of the pie in the first place.
 
Churchlawtonblue said:
Sorry i appear to be banging on about disparity in expenditure. Fairness in something i'm quite keen on in society. Obviously its not as important to some if they have the largest slice of the pie in the first place.
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Disparity in expenditure and fairnes are different things and nothing to do with each other. Expenditure should be directed where need iswhatever the disparity with other parts of the country, that’s fair. If that is Scotland then that’s the decision taken,
if you think other regions don’t get their fair share and deserve equal comparison with Scotland then maybe those regions need devolved government to fight their corner, I ‘d agree and support that.
The argument the north west or any other region don’t get a fair deal so Scotland, N.Ireland or Wales shouldn’t is churlish, level up not down.
 
blueparrot said:
Disparity in expenditure and fairnes are different things and nothing to do with each other. Expenditure should be directed where need iswhatever the disparity with other parts of the country, that’s fair. If that is Scotland then that’s the decision taken,
if you think other regions don’t get their fair share and deserve equal comparison with Scotland then maybe those regions need devolved government to fight their corner, I ‘d agree and support that.
The argument the north west or any other region don’t get a fair deal so Scotland, N.Ireland or Wales shouldn’t is churlish, level up not down.
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I think somewhere previously in this thread somebody did post a regional breakdown of GDP income and expenditure per head of population on a region by region basis. I'll try to find as it's a handy tool for such a comparison.
 
blueparrot said:
Disparity in expenditure and fairnes are different things and nothing to do with each other. Expenditure should be directed where need iswhatever the disparity with other parts of the country, that’s fair. If that is Scotland then that’s the decision taken,
if you think other regions don’t get their fair share and deserve equal comparison with Scotland then maybe those regions need devolved government to fight their corner, I ‘d agree and support that.
The argument the north west or any other region don’t get a fair deal so Scotland, N.Ireland or Wales shouldn’t is churlish, level up not down.
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If you only have £10 and one person gets £6 and other £4 you cant even things up by just giving each person £6. This seems to be what you are bizarrely suggesting? Its not devolution that's the issue, its the differing amount of money per person that different regions of the UK get given.
 
Churchlawtonblue said:
If you only have £10 and one person gets £6 and other £4 you cant even things up by just giving each person £6. This seems to be what you are bizarrely suggesting? Its not devolution that's the issue, its the differing amount of money per person that different regions of the UK get given.
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Thats a polar example we are talking about multiple regions, some redistributing from richer regions to poorer wouldn’t mean redistribution from poorer to other poorer.
Well it shouldn’t under Johnsons tories it could well do, they seem to think the less well off should pay for covid losses. Which is why we want rid.
 
Mazzarelli's Swiss Cheese said:
Yep, seems I was wrong - thanks for putting me right. Apologies - it seems my inability to consider any view but my own has led to me adopting a position of ignorance based upon an empty rather than an open mind.
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Huffy!
Both of you have sound points. I agree with you that the SNP record in government could be better than it is. But you can say that about any government? Your comparison with Farage is way off though mate. The SNP have proven they can govern and although their election results are at least as much down to the opposition as their own magnificence, you can only beat what is put in front of you and they have resoundingly done that. They aren't a one trick pony but I would like them to have a more strategic view than they have demonstrated so far. Not enough joined up integrated thinking. Their opposition however has been woeful in the extreme.
 
Saddleworth2 said:
Its widely available. It shows London and the SE and East in surplus, every other region is deficit.

View attachment 6004
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Yep, but tbf it spreads the North Sea oil revenues around the entire UK. They are currently between 2-3% of GDP so I'd imagine if that revenue in its entirety was applied to the Scotland 'region' only then the bar chart above would look a lot different. I'll admit mathematical defeat as far as working out if it would be enough to make an indy Scotlands finances go into the black rather than the red.
 
blueparrot said:
Thats a polar example we are talking about multiple regions, some redistributing from richer regions to poorer wouldn’t mean redistribution from poorer to other poorer.
Well it shouldn’t under Johnsons tories it could well do, they seem to think the less well off should pay for covid losses. Which is why we want rid.
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Just fundemental economic fairness in my book. to try and justify anything else is frankly just the politics of greed.
 
Mazzarelli's Swiss Cheese said:
Yep, but tbf it spreads the North Sea oil revenues around the entire UK. They are currently between 2-3% of GDP so I'd imagine if that revenue in its entirety was applied to the Scotland 'region' only then the bar chart above would look a lot different. I'll admit mathematical defeat as far as working out if it would be enough to make an indy Scotlands finances go into the black rather than the red.
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With the oil price as it is today certainly not. These figures are from th3 last published in 2018. Tbf, the recent thinking excludes oil from the equation and shows a large annual defecit for some time to come. Scotland needs to attract immigrants, from England, from the EU to support agriculture tourism and start new businesses. It has to turn round what is a shrinking population and attract new revenue generators. That is it’s biggest challenge and frankly one that the Scottish government should be addressing now, particularly in the recovery from Pandemic.
 
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