The Scottish Politics thread

[Ban-jani]

Didn't know the West Midlands were going for independence

They actually look independent already, like the Amish but stuck in the 70’s rather than the 19th century.

 

[hilts]

So what?

So What? Well if the good people of Dudley felt like leaving the union then they may want to consider the economic implications. But they don't so your comparison is somewhat nay wholly pointless.

I'm not aware of Noddy Holder moaning about Wolverhamptons more than fair contribution to the UK as a whole.

 

[Saddleworth2]

Thing is Scotland would be quite happy to vote for a Labour government, or a Lib /Lab coalition, after all they did for the first few Holyrood elections. Scotland isn’t deeply tied to the SNP. If Labour and the Liberal party stop being too tied to their English parties and being completely useless they could challenge for power again, same as in England really where the tories benefit from crap opposition rather than the SNP benefit in Scotland.

I agree mate. But in the here and now a vote for Labour would not be a winning vote in either parliament. Looking backwards, 70% of the last 60 years has been under Tory government. Looking forward, is that going to be any different? it would be if we have independence.

 

[Saddleworth2]

I don't blame anyone for voting SNP on domestic issues over Labour but in a general election?

At least it would give people like saddleworth a chance of getting rid of the Tories. A vote for the SNP won't get rid of them unless North Britain becomes separate and that will be far more harmful than 30 years of the Tories imo.

Scotland could have voted labour into every one of our constituencies at the last election and we still would have had a Tory government. What is it that you are not getting?

 

[west didsblue]

So What? Well if the good people of Dudley felt like leaving the union then they may want to consider the economic implications. But they don't so your comparison is somewhat nay wholly pointless.

I'm not aware of Noddy Holder moaning about Wolverhamptons more than fair contribution to the UK as a whole.

The point being made by Churchlawton was that the Scots are unfairly favoured over the English. The reality is that they’re treated exactly the same as the West Midlands, less favourably than some regions and more favourably than others. If they go for independence they will have to sort out that deficit to some extent. As an independent state on the island of Great Britain with a good chance of gaining early accession to the EU they will have plenty of opportunities IMO.

Having said all that I hope they stay in the UK union because I believe we will all be worse off if they leave but if they decide to go I don’t blame them for reasons already mentioned.

 

[hilts]

The point being made by Churchlawton was that the Scots are unfairly favoured over the English. The reality is that they’re treated exactly the same as the West Midlands, less favourably than some regions and more favourably than others. If they go for independence they will have to sort out that deficit to some extent. As an independent state on the island of Great Britain with a good chance of gaining early accession to the EU they will have plenty of opportunities IMO.

Having said all that I hope they stay in the UK union because I believe we will all be worse off if they leave but if they decide to go I don’t blame them for reasons already mentioned.

I like Scotland great place and whatever they decide to do is fine by me. But there is unfortunately like brexit a divide developing which is unhealthy.

Your analogy is wrong because it's irrelevant to the independence debate also the West Midlands do not have their own parliament and aren't trying to self govern to the same extent as the Scottish. If people want to go their own way then own it.

Nicola in the last few weeks with the hygiene poverty and today's ramble is going full steam ahead it's a PR stunt. Questions will be asked.

 

[Saddleworth2]

The point being made by Churchlawton was that the Scots are unfairly favoured over the English. The reality is that they’re treated exactly the same as the West Midlands, less favourably than some regions and more favourably than others. If they go for independence they will have to sort out that deficit to some extent. As an independent state on the island of Great Britain with a good chance of gaining early accession to the EU they will have plenty of opportunities IMO.

Having said all that I hope they stay in the UK union because I believe we will all be worse off if they leave but if they decide to go I don’t blame them for reasons already mentioned.

Comparison with English regions is a bit strange. Scotland has been an identifiable country since Roman times and has a unique world renowned identity.
It has been a separate country for far longer than it has been part of a Union. Indeed the Union was voted down multiple times by the parliament of both countries before it finally was passed. It only passed because the nobility of Scotland had pissed their wealth up the wall because of the Darien scheme. That, and the threat of another war. It’s relationship with Europe has always been very strong.

Scotland has contributed so much to the Union from the start through some extraordinary people with world leading capability, be it in politics, science, engineering, medicine or culture. I find it sad that we are categorised as a nation of spongers by many on here.

i think the Union is terminally fractured and Brexit has and will provide the coup de grace. We may all be worse off but we both will be able to follow our respective political ideals.

 

[west didsblue]

Comparison with English regions is a bit strange. Scotland has been an identifiable country since Roman times and has a unique world renowned identity.
It has been a separate country for far longer than it has been part of a Union. Indeed the Union was voted down multiple times by the parliament of both countries before it finally was passed. It only passed because the nobility of Scotland had pissed their wealth up the wall because of the Darien scheme. That, and the threat of another war. It’s relationship with Europe has always been very strong.

Scotland has contributed so much to the Union from the start through some extraordinary people with world leading capability, be it in politics, science, engineering, medicine or culture. I find it sad that we are categorised as a nation of spongers by many on here.

i think the Union is terminally fractured and Brexit has and will provide the coup de grace. We may all be worse off but we both will be able to follow our respective political ideals.

I don’t disagree with any of that.

The comparison with English regions was purely to demonstrate that Scotland is not a nation of spongers - it is not treated any better or worse than other areas of the UK, which is the opposite to what some of the England First lot on here keep saying.

 

[Saddleworth2]

I don’t disagree with any of that.

The comparison with English regions was purely to demonstrate that Scotland is not a nation of spongers - it is not treated any better or worse than other areas of the UK, which is the opposite to what some of the England First lot on here keep saying.

I wasn’t taking a pop at you mate. You and others do seem to understand the dynamic. This isn’t going away and even if the SNP imploded tomorrow the popular drive for independence would continue.

 

[Ban-jani]

I wasn’t taking a pop at you mate. You and others do seem to understand the dynamic. This isn’t going away and even if the SNP imploded tomorrow the popular drive for independence would continue.

I haven’t called Scotland spongers but Scots are technically better off in terms of spending per head than me, have a devolved parliament that makes local decisions that I don’t have and I’ve lost every vote in my life, other than one.

So you can understand when people get a little tired of all the moaning about not getting what they want.

Scotland also hasn’t really been a proper country for centuries and neither has England.

Unionism is dying but it ought not to be, its death is being fuelled by propaganda on both sides and the risks aren’t being communicated by anyone.

Sturgeon will fail massively either way and for her sake it’ll be better she fails by not securing Independence and being chucked out the party for failing that.

The woman who broke up Britain and all the mess that will go with it will go down as a new Guy Fawkes. She’ll be remembered woefully and will likely be the most hated politician in Scottish history.

That may sound like hyperbole but I think it’s that serious, as I’ve said countless times it’ll make Brexit look like a picnic and we all know what a shit storm it’s been.
I do find it odd that English Nationalists are treated with disdain on here but Scottish nationalists get a pat on the back.

 

[Ban-jani]

Oh and imagine an English politician launching a nationalist agenda on St George’s day.

What she’s done is pure jingoism.

 

[Churchlawtonblue]

I haven’t called Scotland spongers but Scots are technically better off in terms of spending per head than me, have a devolved parliament that makes local decisions that I don’t have and I’ve lost every vote in my life, other than one.

So you can understand when people get a little tired of all the moaning about not getting what they want.

Scotland also hasn’t really been a proper country for centuries and neither has England.

Unionism is dying but it ought not to be, its death is being fuelled by propaganda on both sides and the risks aren’t being communicated by anyone.

Sturgeon will fail massively either way and for her sake it’ll be better she fails by not securing Independence and being chucked out the party for failing that.

The woman who broke up Britain and all the mess that will go with it will go down as a new Guy Fawkes. She’ll be remembered woefully and will likely be the most hated politician in Scottish history.

That may sound like hyperbole but I think it’s that serious, as I’ve said countless times it’ll make Brexit look like a picnic and we all know what a shit storm it’s been.
I do find it odd that English Nationalists are treated with disdain on here but Scottish nationalists get a pat on the back.

I wonder how she intends to deal with the 18% deficit in tax revenue compared to expenditure she will have if she secures independence. Has she ever answered this question?

 

[mancity2012_eamo]

I haven’t called Scotland spongers but Scots are technically better off in terms of spending per head than me, have a devolved parliament that makes local decisions that I don’t have and I’ve lost every vote in my life, other than one.

So you can understand when people get a little tired of all the moaning about not getting what they want.

Scotland also hasn’t really been a proper country for centuries and neither has England.

Unionism is dying but it ought not to be, its death is being fuelled by propaganda on both sides and the risks aren’t being communicated by anyone.

Sturgeon will fail massively either way and for her sake it’ll be better she fails by not securing Independence and being chucked out the party for failing that.

The woman who broke up Britain and all the mess that will go with it will go down as a new Guy Fawkes. She’ll be remembered woefully and will likely be the most hated politician in Scottish history.

That may sound like hyperbole but I think it’s that serious, as I’ve said countless times it’ll make Brexit look like a picnic and we all know what a shit storm it’s been.
I do find it odd that English Nationalists are treated with disdain on here but Scottish nationalists get a pat on the back.

I suppose a fair question would be, what exactly do English Nationalists want? Their own parliament? separate parliaments for all, Scotland/NI/Wales as well.

What’s the purpose of a UK then?

Maybe English problems are as much emanating from a British Westminster government in the UK system as they are from Brussels?
Maybe inevitably the answer is the break up of a union within a union and the components then decide for themselves where they want to align their futures.

Here’s an article from last August that may be of interest.

Redirect Notice

Edit:
Sorry put the wrong article up originally.

 

[west didsblue]

I wonder how she intends to deal with the 18% deficit in tax revenue compared to expenditure she will have if she secures independence. Has she ever answered this question?

Why do you care so much? It would be Scotland’s problem to deal with.

 

[Fame Monster]

I suppose a fair question would be, what exactly do English Nationalists want? Their own parliament? separate parliaments for all, Scotland/NI/Wales as well.

What’s the purpose of a UK then?

Maybe English problems are as much emanating from a British Westminster government in the UK system as they are from Brussels?
Maybe inevitably the answer is the break up of a union within a union and the components then decide for themselves where they want to align their futures.

Here’s an article from last August that may be of interest.

Breaking News | Irish & International Headlines | The Irish Times

The Irish Times online. Latest news including sport, analysis, business, weather and more from the definitive brand of quality news in Ireland.

www.irishtimes.com

The irony is, from my experience, the English nationalists want the same as the Scottish nationalists i.e. Scottish separatism. They see the stats about the deal the Scots have got compared to England and think they're free loaders.

I do actually think an English Parliament would be a good idea and would deliver a better constitutional settlement but it won't happen because the Conservatives and Labour don't want it and the SNP would vote against it too.

 

[hilts]

The irony is, from my experience, the English nationalists want the same as the Scottish nationalists i.e. Scottish separatism. They see the stats about the deal the Scots have got compared to England and think they're free loaders.

I do actually think an English Parliament would be a good idea and would deliver a better constitutional settlement but it won't happen because the Conservatives and Labour don't want it and the SNP would vote against it too.

I disagree I don't want more parliaments or politician's. You want to be in a club based on shared interests? Fine if you don't make your own way.

 

[Fame Monster]

I disagree I don't want more parliaments or politician's. You want to be in a club based on shared interests? Fine if you don't make your own way.

I don't want any more parliaments or politicians either tbh.

If it was up to me, I'd scrap the devolved parliaments (apart from NI) and have a unified country again and delegate more power to the different Scottish and Welsh regions like GM/Liverpool City Region have rather than prop up these medieval ideas of England, Scotland, and Wales.

Obviously, the political reality is that would be very difficult so the only way to weaken the idea that England lords it over Scotland and Wales is imo to have an English Parliament too and therefore equality within the Union.

 

[mexico1970]

I disagree I don't want more parliaments or politician's. You want to be in a club based on shared interests? Fine if you don't make your own way.

The way it's going we'll get an English Parliament even if we didn't ask for it.

 

[hilts]

The way it's going we'll get an English Parliament even if we didn't ask for it.

That's fine with me at some point people will have to draw lines and decide which side they want to reside on. As long as they get on with each other afterwards who cares

 

[Coatigan]

I like Scotland great place and whatever they decide to do is fine by me. But there is unfortunately like brexit a divide developing which is unhealthy.

Your analogy is wrong because it's irrelevant to the independence debate also the West Midlands do not have their own parliament and aren't trying to self govern to the same extent as the Scottish. If people want to go their own way then own it.

Nicola in the last few weeks with the hygiene poverty and today's ramble is going full steam ahead it's a PR stunt. Questions will be asked.

You are bang on about that divide, i have been stressing this every now and again. And how big it is getting. And if this thread is even a teeny sampler, comments like we pay for your perks, if it was up to england you'd be independent etc. show it, i actually can't off the top of my head think of any nationalistc jibes from any of the scottish posters here, notbin a while anywlway. Yes ok we can debate whose oil it is (i don'treally care about the oil tbf), that it is a nation not a region etc, but that f.u. sentiment, is pretty damn one sided.

Brexit has very much sped that up, not just in difference, but in the buoyant attitudes that have become acceptable commonplace. Indyref started it coming out to the surface. I would like to think most of those making such remarks didnt think that way pre 2014, but who knows. Either way, pretty damn entrenched now. Whereas, from how i understand what i read, many of the scot posters still seem to have some degree of flexibility and room to make minds up.

I myself feel that, economy, politics and technicalities aside, socially and culturally, the differences are so vast now that i genuinely can't see a way back, the way things are going. Both politicians also tapping into this and using these ideals to sell themselves and get numbers behind them doesn't help any. Nicola knows fine well she is winning votes by policies that care for all parts of society of any background, because people welcome that. Boris similarly has made a point of prioritising those who 'feel left behind' or think 'that they deserve more'. It's not like people don't see through that. Thing is, with nicola, i take it as a bit less cynical, as she has at least been a lefty activist all her life. With boris, i see it as opportunism, like his two letters on brexit.

It isn't in the slightest bit pleasant, typing the above btw, and this divide is certainly not one thing i like at all.