Indeed. The fact they were winning elections but not the last referendum is testament to them having a range of policies that people actually like. The more they’re seen as single issue or an EDL(?!) equivalent, the more they appeal to Scottish people, as it’s a huge misrepresentation
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Indeed. The fact they were winning elections but not the last referendum is testament to them having a range of policies that people actually like. The more they’re seen as single issue or an EDL(?!) equivalent, the more they appeal to Scottish people, as it’s a huge misrepresentation
blueparrot
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That's all you need to know, you don't have to like independence, you don't have to like their policies. The fact they win elections form governments and will probably poll towards 50% in spring as a sitting government,tells anyone that looks at it they not comaparable in the slightest to UKIP, Farage or any other minority nationalist party.Unless you think most Scots are very stupid or very nationalist/racist.Indeed. The fact they were winning elections but not the last referendum is testament to them having a range of policies that people actually like. The more they’re seen as single issue or an EDL(?!) equivalent, the more they appeal to Scottish people, as it’s a huge misrepresentation
Shadz69
Well-Known Member
EU to Scotland ~Come on down the price is right.
Independence is comfortably polling at higher than their vote share. So there are actually Scots that don’t vote for them but want independence, rather than the other way around generally speaking and then there’s their poor performance in Scotland.Indeed. The fact they were winning elections but not the last referendum is testament to them having a range of policies that people actually like. The more they’re seen as single issue or an EDL(?!) equivalent, the more they appeal to Scottish people, as it’s a huge misrepresentation
You’re correct if by “price” you mean deficit and by “right” you mean wrong, very wrong, actually nowhere near what’s needed to join the EU.EU to Scotland ~Come on down the price is right.
Shadz69
Well-Known Member
If you think Scotland and Wales won't be fast tracked and supported you are being shortsighted.You’re correct if by “price” you mean deficit and by “right” you mean wrong, very wrong, actually nowhere near what’s needed to join the EU.
Mazzarelli's Swiss Cheese
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You left NI out ;-)If you think Scotland and Wales won't be fast tracked and supported you are being shortsighted.
What do Wales have to do with it?If you think Scotland and Wales won't be fast tracked and supported you are being shortsighted.
Scotland’s deficit isn’t at the level required for EU membership now. It definitely won’t be anywhere near it in 2 years time.
Even if it is fast tracked, it still takes years to join and Scotland won’t be able to apply unless it’s an independent state already. Based on past applications if Scotland is meeting all criteria, you’re looking at 3 years, as best case scenario with the EU bending over backwards... unfortunately they’re not going to be close to meeting the criteria.
Can you imagine a Scotland spending 3 years (likely more) outside the UK and EU?
Mazzarelli's Swiss Cheese
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I think when you take 3 years as a realistic minimum for EU entry and add whatever time it takes to secure indyref 2/independence, then it's likely the heat will go out of the indy cause. By that time brexit will be vanishing in the rear view mirror, it's likely both Labour and the Torys will be in a less shit state, and SNP shortcomings as a governing party will be further exposed.What do Wales have to do with it?
Scotland’s deficit isn’t at the level required for EU membership now. It definitely won’t be anywhere near it in 2 years time.
Even if it is fast tracked, it still takes years to join and Scotland won’t be able to apply unless it’s an independent state already. Based on past applications if Scotland is meeting all criteria, you’re looking at 3 years, as best case scenario with the EU bending over backwards... unfortunately they’re not going to be close to meeting the criteria.
Can you imagine a Scotland spending 3 years (likely more) outside the UK and EU?
west didsblue
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Exactly. An application from an independent country that never wanted to leave the EU but got dragged out against its will when it was part of a larger union will have no problem gaining accession, and if full membership takes a few years they will be given Single Market access and membership of the Customs Union in the interim. It won't be treated the same as an application from for example Bosnia or Albania, who would need huge changes to adapt to the requirements for membership, whilst Scotland already meets them with the exception of a £15bn deficit which is peanuts in the scheme of things. They could probably wipe that out in a day by leasing Faslane to the remainder of the UK.If you think Scotland and Wales won't be fast tracked and supported you are being shortsighted.
I really hope this is the case.I think when you take 3 years as a realistic minimum for EU entry and add whatever time it takes to secure indyref 2/independence, then it's likely the heat will go out of the indy cause. By that time brexit will be vanishing in the rear view mirror, it's likely both Labour and the Torys will be in a less shit state, and SNP shortcomings as a governing party will be further exposed.
Shadz69
Well-Known Member
You left NI o
No I didnt,I think the EU are happy enough with things there for now. If Ireland reunifies in the next two decades they would see it as a success. Remember it was Johnson who gave NI away.You left NI out ;-)
Shadz69
Well-Known Member
As I said shortsighted, try thinking about 10yrs from now. The EU have numerous ways to help countries transition to full membership.What do Wales have to do with it?
Scotland’s deficit isn’t at the level required for EU membership now. It definitely won’t be anywhere near it in 2 years time.
Even if it is fast tracked, it still takes years to join and Scotland won’t be able to apply unless it’s an independent state already. Based on past applications if Scotland is meeting all criteria, you’re looking at 3 years, as best case scenario with the EU bending over backwards... unfortunately they’re not going to be close to meeting the criteria.
Can you imagine a Scotland spending 3 years (likely more) outside the UK and EU?
Shadz69
Well-Known Member
Yeah,all hypothetical of course but there isnt a one size fits all route to membership.Exactly. An application from an independent country that never wanted to leave the EU but got dragged out against its will when it was part of a larger union will have no problem gaining accession, and if full membership takes a few years they will be given Single Market access and membership of the Customs Union in the interim. It won't be treated the same as an application from for example Bosnia or Albania, who would need huge changes to adapt to the requirements for membership, whilst Scotland already meets them with the exception of a £15bn deficit which is peanuts in the scheme of things. They could probably wipe that out in a day by leasing Faslane to the remainder of the UK.
Scotland may be helped in their application but there’s zero evidence of that, the EU have only said they’ll only deal with them if they ever become independent and wouldn’t negotiate with a member of the UK prior to that.Exactly. An application from an independent country that never wanted to leave the EU but got dragged out against its will when it was part of a larger union will have no problem gaining accession, and if full membership takes a few years they will be given Single Market access and membership of the Customs Union in the interim. It won't be treated the same as an application from for example Bosnia or Albania, who would need huge changes to adapt to the requirements for membership, whilst Scotland already meets them with the exception of a £15bn deficit which is peanuts in the scheme of things. They could probably wipe that out in a day by leasing Faslane to the remainder of the UK.
This means that yes, it will take years and the word “fast tracked” can be used as much as people want but 3 years is incredibly optimistic, I used that based on previous applications and what an EFTA member would take to join, especially considering Scotland will have to establish defence, an independent police force, their health service etc.
Regarding the deficit, they will have to take a proportion of the UK’s, should they want to leave and even ignoring that major point, Scotland’s deficit is set to increase over the next few years, not decrease.
Your point about the naval base is perplexing. In what world would a Scotland leaving the UK make money on the UK’s defence? It’ll cost them more than anything.
Think of the divorce bill the UK needs to pay in order to have a good relationship with the EU after leaving, now picture Scotland’s if they leave the UK.
Im sorry to say but you sound like certain prominent Brexiteers in 2015, going on about sunny uplands.
They do but the fastest possible time is 3 years, by which time Scotland will be in a dire position and that’s even suggesting the EU are desperate for Scotland to join.As I said shortsighted, try thinking about 10yrs from now. The EU have numerous ways to help countries transition to full membership.
How is Scotland ever going to get close to bringing the deficit down to what’s needed as an independent country?
Shadz69
Well-Known Member
How does any country pay a deficit down? As I said hypothetical.They do but the fastest possible time is 3 years, by which time Scotland will be in a dire position and that’s even suggesting the EU are desperate for Scotland to join.
How is Scotland ever going to get close to bringing the deficit down to what’s needed as an independent country?
You bring a deficit down, it’s essentially your running costs and Scotland’s isn’t in good shape and is going to be worse.How does any country pay a deficit down? As I said hypothetical.
(as is the rest of the UK)
west didsblue
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I don't want Scotland to leave the UK but our idiotic government at Westminster is giving the nationalists all the ammunition they need to make it happen.Scotland may be helped in their application but there’s zero evidence of that, the EU have only said they’ll only deal with them if they ever become independent and wouldn’t negotiate with a member of the UK prior to that.
This means that yes, it will take years and the word “fast tracked” can be used as much as people want but 3 years is incredibly optimistic, I used that based on previous applications and what an EFTA member would take to join, especially considering Scotland will have to establish defence, an independent police force, their health service etc.
Regarding the deficit, they will have to take a proportion of the UK’s, should they want to leave and even ignoring that major point, Scotland’s deficit is set to increase over the next few years, not decrease.
Your point about the naval base is perplexing. In what world would a Scotland leaving the UK make money on the UK’s defence? It’ll cost them more than anything.
Think of the divorce bill the UK needs to pay in order to have a good relationship with the EU after leaving, now picture Scotland’s if they leave the UK.
Im sorry to say but you sound like certain prominent Brexiteers in 2015, going on about sunny uplands.
If they do vote for independence that would take several years to implement, and I expect that during those years there would be discussions with the EU about the approach to membership and potentially an agreement for associate membership at the end of UKexit. At that point they could formally apply for full membership but if everything had been agreed up front there would be little reason for the accession process to drag on.
The Faslane comment was a throwaway one by the way and I am well aware that they would need to sort out their own defence and it would be quite complex.
By the way, Scotland runs its own police force and NHS already and there's no shortage of defence infrastructure north of the border.
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Itll be far more damaging than Brexit and will make both Scotland and England worse off, with Scotland absolutely ruined.I don't want Scotland to leave the UK but our idiotic government at Westminster is giving the nationalists all the ammunition they need to make it happen.
If they do vote for independence that would take several years to implement, and I expect that during those years there would be discussions with the EU about the approach to membership and potentially an agreement for associate membership at the end of UKexit. At that point they could formally apply for full membership but if everything had been agreed up front there would be little reason for the accession process to drag on.
The Faslane comment was a throwaway one by the way and I am well aware that they would need to sort out their own defence and it would be quite complex.
I’ll make very little impact saying it on here but I wish others would highlight the major flaws in the media. Sturgeon gets off scot free (no pun intended) whereas her plan only really seems to stretch as far as begging the EU to let them in as quickly as possible.
She’s made no commitment to currency, a border (which we’ll have no choice in implementing), armed forces, police, how they will fund their NHS in full, considering both Scotland and England will be worse off but Scotland far more significantly and without support from London. The only person who ever pulled her up on this was Andrew Neil and he’s left.
It’s a recipe for disaster and the perfect storm to turn Scotland into a poor country, quickly.
People think that’s patronising, it isn’t it’s just the truth. Just as saying Brexit was a mistake and warning against the huge risks there wasn’t patronising to British people.
I appreciate people are fed up. I’m fed up with the Tories and I don’t have any faith in Labour either ... but it’s cutting off their nose to spite their face and they’d be much better trying to vote for a party that could win in England too, if the Tory government are really the issue.
It’s like disliking your bathroom so choosing to burn your entire house down, after putting all the windows through. It makes no sense.