Another new Brexit thread

[BobKowalski]

Ok clam down princess, before making jibes about IQ, perhaps you could provide a breakdown of what value the UK receives from their contribution other than a simple payment to be part of a trading bloc.

Ok, first ‘a simple payment’ to be part of the richest Single Market on the planet, meaning UK industries and businesses can trade with 29 other countries as if they were in the UK, paperwork, admin, customs reduced or eliminated. Professional qualifications recognised throughout the 29 countries, meaning lawyers, accountants, architects can work, travel anywhere without seeking permission or getting equivalent qualifications in those respective countries, health costs covered for travellers.

Second, regulation outsource, in addition to the cost to the country of building, hiring staff for the new customs procedures, as well as lorry parks we will also have to duplicate the regulatory regimes for chemicals, medicines etc, all of which currently is done by the EU for 27 countries, this will be costly to the Govt and add more administrative costs and red tape burdens to businesses in the UK.

We will spend far more preparing the UK for all of this and administrating it then we did in contributions and all to ensure our businesses and industries will compete at a disadvantage to European competitors as well getting cut out of supply chains across Europe. The end result will be slower growth for the UK which means lower tax revenues going forward.

The really pathetic part? We will spend billions eliminating what we have and then spend the next decade trying to get what we had, back. Even more weird. NI can still do a lot of that when the rest of the UK will be behind a barrier. Part of the UK will enjoy an easier trading relationship with Europe than the other three nations. How is that sustainable?

And I’ve not mentioned the Horizon Research program, Financial Services, Erasmus, pet travel etc., or even good old tariffs.

 

[BobKowalski]

Not a lot to be liked about him at all

But at least he got rid of the poisonous unfettered backstop that May had fallen for and he is holing out against other ridiculous EU demands - so not all bad

Still an utter buffoon though

Yeah, he fucking sold NI to the EU.

Jeez.

 

[Northernstorirs]

Ok, first ‘a simple payment’ to be part of the richest Single Market on the planet, meaning UK industries and businesses can trade with 29 other countries as if they were in the UK, paperwork, admin, customs reduced or eliminated. Professional qualifications recognised throughout the 29 countries, meaning lawyers, accountants, architects can work, travel anywhere without seeking permission or getting equivalent qualifications in those respective countries, health costs covered for travellers.

Second, regulation outsource, in addition to the cost to the country of building, hiring staff for the new customs procedures, as well as lorry parks we will also have to duplicate the regulatory regimes for chemicals, medicines etc, all of which currently is done by the EU for 27 countries, this will be costly to the Govt and add more administrative costs and red tape burdens to businesses in the UK.

We will spend far more preparing the UK for all of this and administrating it then we did in contributions and all to ensure our businesses and industries will compete at a disadvantage to European competitors as well getting cut out of supply chains across Europe. The end result will be slower growth for the UK which means lower tax revenues going forward.

The really pathetic part? We will spend billions eliminating what we have and then spend the next decade trying to get what we had, back. Even more weird. NI can still do a lot of that when the rest of the UK will be behind a barrier. Part of the UK will enjoy an easier trading relationship with Europe than the other three nations. How is that sustainable?

And I’ve not mentioned the Horizon Research program, Financial Services, Erasmus, pet travel etc., or even good old tariffs.

I agree with all of the above being huge benefits to being within the EU. I don't know how you can quantify that in terms of a return on investment but I agree completely these are all essential and why the next few years will be a ballache. These perks are however offered to most countries in the EU which goes back to my point about the financial return on the UK's high contribution.

 

[domalino]

50 until we see any benefits apparently.

Most of the people who voted for it will be dead by then.

 

[dave_blue12]

It needed it.

So, how do you see things going ?

Given you clearly think you are so smart.

 

[west didsblue]

I agree with all of the above being huge benefits to being within the EU. I don't know how you can quantify that in terms of a return on investment but I agree completely these are all essential and why the next few years will be a ballache. These perks are however offered to most countries in the EU which goes back to my point about the financial return on the UK's high contribution.

They are not perks. They are what all countries get as members of the EU. If you think that all those benefits could be funded outside the EU with less than £10bn then you are deluded.

 

[kevin horlocks wand]

I’ll be honest, the effects of a no deal Brexit on Lithuania, Slovakia and the like don’t really bother me. To be fair, over half the EU countries barely give a shite either way.

Also, I have no idea why you think agreeing the WA and the future trade deal at the same time would have made a toss of difference given we still thought German carmakers would swing it for us and ‘it would be the easiest deal in history’.

Personally, I think us not having a fucking scooby was the biggest issue, and after four years, one internal customs border and NI still half left in the EU, it seems we still don’t.

that’s not really addressing the point.

we wanted a legal binding WA and FTA negotiated together which could have been done and ALL voted on and approved by parliament years ago.

the eu didn’t want to.

21 days to go it’s all the UKs fault we don’t have a FTA.

 

[Metal Biker]

that’s not really addressing the point.

we wanted a legal binding WA and FTA negotiated together which could have been done and ALL voted on and approved by parliament years ago.

the eu didn’t want to.

21 days to go it’s all the UKs fault we don’t have a FTA.

One that was even offered to us by the EU.

Then Boris asks if we can have that original deal that was on offer and the EU says we can't have it anymore. Go figure.

 

[kevin horlocks wand]

With regard to dynamic alignment both sides would have equal obligations and rights so there would be commonality.

no there would not it is the eu blatantly trying to tie the uk in to the eu rules in perpetuity .

apparently according to bluemoon these things are in all free trade agreements round the world

I am sure in the new FTA agreement the UK has just signed with Vietnam we are bound to follow vietnams regulatory , social, labour and environmental laws in perpituity.

are we bollox.

 

[jaseirai]

Ok clam down princess, before making jibes about IQ, perhaps you could provide a breakdown of what value the UK receives from their contribution other than a simple payment to be part of a trading bloc.

We got 4 million jobless Europeans for a start. We should be grateful for their benevolence

 

[Vic]

Yeah, it's a weird one alright. If the vote didn't go your way, I can understand people being disappointed but why would you then want it to be a disaster as that would surely affect both Leavers and Remainers alike. If it does indeed turn out to be a shit show then Brexit won't discriminate and only cause Leavers hardship. Surely you'd want to be pleasantly surprised and hoping for it to be as big a success as possible.

It really needed to be an obvious shitshow from the off. Then the pressure for another referendum would have allowed us to change mind. It's not much use having a shitshow when it's too late but Liar Johnson pulled it off.

Of course the winners could have done as promised and kept us in a free trade zone from Iceland to the Russian border but no, we had to go mad over control and sovereignty (not on the ballot paper).

 

[dave_blue12]

that’s not really addressing the point.

we wanted a legal binding WA and FTA negotiated together which could have been done and ALL voted on and approved by parliament years ago.

the eu didn’t want to.

21 days to go it’s all the UKs fault we don’t have a FTA.

Once you understand that the deal that we wanted was never going to be offered to us it makes the timing irrelevant.

We were always ending up where we are because our expectations were unrealistic.

 

[Metal Biker]

Once you understand that the deal that we wanted was never going to be offered to us it makes the timing irrelevant.

We were always ending up where we are because our expectations were unrealistic.

But the EU did offer it; a 'Canada Style' deal. May rejected it favouring her WA.

Johnson asked for the exact same offer the EU gave in the beginning, a 'Canada Style' deal and all that it entails; the EU refused to offer it to us again. So we've been negotiating as close to a Canada deal as we could, but the EU refuses to meet us halfway.

 

[kevin horlocks wand]

Once you understand that the deal that we wanted was never going to be offered to us it makes the timing irrelevant.

We were always ending up where we are because our expectations were unrealistic.

what just asking some lawyers to get the Canada agreement out and changing the word Canada for UK.

we don’t want anything more than other countries have with the eu in the form of a free trade agreement.

unless you are telling me that

the French can fish in Canadian waters ;and

canada are obligated to follow eu laws and regulations or face sanctions ?

 

[Vic]

Well, not that I am interested - but please apologise, but more importantly....

You seem to have a problem understanding the words - which I have set out quite a few times now:

You know - because I have clearly told you - that I choose not to engage with you because of the repeated manner in which you twist the words of posters that you are 'engaging' with to mean other than what they actually said.

I suspect I am not alone in deciding that there is no point whatsoever in 'engaging' with someone that acts that way.

There will be others that I find worth the time to engage with that I can explain to why this would be an excellent outcome for the UK - specifically for the UK's fishing industry and more widely the TA negotiations.

I just will not spend more time - than an occasional post like this - on 'exchanges' with you or others that I find incapable of genuine debate"

So I was right. You didn't ever say what a good idea it was to have a transition period on fishing, until your hero Frost conceded it. Then you had always known it.

 

[gordondaviesmoustache]

It really isn't.
The choices were we'll try and get a deal, we'll try and get a deal then argue against adopting it, and we'll just remain in the EU.

One won out over the other choices as a way of ending the saga. If you want to be one of those that seeks to end the animosity and divisions, I fail to see how 'blaming the public' goes towards healing those divisions especially since such blame is neither warrented or justified.

In my defence the entirety of ' 'public's fault' should have been in quotes but for some reason the quotation mark ended after 'public's', however I think there was a wholly incorrect assumption among many that voted leave (and many who didn't) that our political classes had anything vaguely resembling the required level of competence to deal with this in an efficient manner.

They manifestly did not.

 

[meltonblue]

And I didn't vote Tory in 2019, yet apparently i'm also to blame in your eyes because of 2016?

See how ignorant your stance on the matter is?

It’s not a binary point though, I said there wasn’t absolution of blame. That we have ended up at this point is a consequence of the way you chose to vote. That’s fine, it is what it is. You can’t then say you had no part in it without it being ignorance on your part.

I don’t particularly blame you or have strong feelings about it though. I blame others far more for the situation we are in.

 

[Metal Biker]

In my defence the entirety of ' 'public's fault' should have been in quotes but for some reason the quotation mark ended after 'public's', however I think there was a wholly incorrect assumption among many that voted leave (and many who didn't) that our political classes had anything vaguely resembling the required level of competence to deal with this in an efficient manner.

They manifestly did not.

Which is why such narratives like "the brexiteers must own this!" is neither helpful nor goes towards anything rectifying any potential hardships to come.

Are those who voted brexit to be tarred and feathered on demand? Will reasonable people stop to ask why leave voters voted the way they did, or have done since 2016? No, because the majority of people who think that way are a mob of ignorance.

Because when you go one way of "brexiteers caused this!", you will likely see a return of the "traitor" accusations, and nobody wants that, do they. Nobody was consulted about the ins and outs of membership, but we collectively as a nation made a decision to remain in the EEC.

I don't see you criticising the public for their ill-informed decision, or is that because it resulted in a conclusion you personally favoured? Many who voted to remain in '75 soon changed their minds in the 80's, too.

 

[Metal Biker]

It’s not a binary point though, I said there wasn’t absolution of blame. That we have ended up at this point is a consequence of the way you chose to vote. That’s fine, it is what it is. You can’t then say you had no part in it without it being ignorance on your part.

You also played your part in it, so you are equally as responsible by your logic.

The UK and the EU not agreeing upon a deal is solely the responsibilty and cupability of those elected officials, from the UK AND the EU, for failing to agree.

I find it very odd you want to shift blame away from politicians tasked to acheive this aim, onto the electorate.

 

[meltonblue]

You also played your part in it, so you are equally as responsible by your logic.

The UK and the EU not agreeing upon a deal is solely the responsibilty and cupability of those elected officials, from the UK AND the EU, for failing to agree.

I find it very odd you want to shift blame away from politicians tasked to acheive this aim, onto the electorate.

I edited my previous post after you quoted it but to clarify I absolutely don’t want to shift blame away from politicians, I hold them far more to account for it. I’m only pointing out there can’t be complete absolution of blame elsewhere.

I haven’t played any part in it, essentially my voice has never at any point had enough agreement from other people to be able to influence it at all.

I’m like I imagine most people are now including yourself and that’s trying to do the best with whatever we have.