Another new Brexit thread

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mcfc1632 said:
I went back to find your analysis of that article I linked the other day - I would have referred to it earlier if I had seen it - sorry I did not and missing it was the only reason.

I see your comments to be pretty much reserved to the aspects of general relationships referred to in the article. Really limited to areas of what could be considered to be 'normal tensions'.

I am assuming that was not deliberate - given the depth of analysis that I have seen from you previously I would have expected you to pick up on the more fundamental areas that the article raised - but to be fair I realise that my initial post could have been deemed to be a bit 'high-handed' and I should have been more explicit. So I will on one subject - debt mutualisation:

1/ What are your general thoughts about the EU aims of achieving debt mutualisation across the EU - what do you think will be achieved and what damage could be done to the Eurozone?

2/ What are your specific thoughts about how that is going to work for the 'Frugal four': Holland, Sweden, Denmark, and Austria?

3/ What do you think that it will mean specifically for Germany - and by extension and related to debt mutualisation - can you understand why Germany have been/were/are keen for the UK to Remain in the EU?

4/ Why do you think that the subject has caused a rift in the Franco/German relationship - but also caused Germany to abandon the Frugal four?

5/ What do you think that it could have meant for the UK over the next 10-20 years if we had Remained in the EU?

6/ Given the prevailing conditions of the Mediterranean Europe group — Greece, Italy, Spain, and Portugal and many other more recent members resulting from the 2004 and 2007 enlargements that are seeking more and more money for staying in the Euro - do you see it as a one-off exercise or will it be required to be repeated? - what are the implications of that?

Also - here are some associated questions that are not specifically touched upon in or logically flowing from the report, but I think are quite relevant and I would really appreciate your views on

What 'motivating characteristic' would you suggest that the countries that joined the EU through the 2004 and 2007 enlargements had in common? and how many of these countries are 'contributors'?

And, similarly, what 'motivating characteristic' would those countries identified as future members have in common? and how many of these countries would be 'contributors'?

How many countries that are currently independent and potential contributors are seeking accession?

Perhaps these would be more interesting questions to debate rather than the level to which the thread has sunk to - afterall, achieving the raising of the thread content up was an aspiration of yours.

You have in the past encouraged me to post openly on the forum rather than in PMs - I wonder if raising such questions as these will lead you to realise why I might have preferred PMs.
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Point 4) The Bundesbank is insolvent and German taxpayers are currently on the hook for its recapitalisation. Spread the pain.

www.bundesbank.de

TARGET balances

Payment systems
www.bundesbank.de www.bundesbank.de
 
jaseirai said:
Point 4) The Bundesbank is insolvent and German taxpayers are currently on the hook for its recapitalisation. Spread the pain.

www.bundesbank.de

TARGET balances

Payment systems
www.bundesbank.de www.bundesbank.de
Click to expand...
Interesting article. Which bit of it are you suggesting backs up your point about the Bundesbank being insolvent?

Or were you hoping no one would read it and just assume you’re not posting complete bollocks.
 
It’s fucking disgusting what this country has become. One of the major points of the EU in the first place was to bring European countries closer together in the time following WW2 so that we’d never see conflict between our nations again (we haven’t). Now we’re ripping that apart and waking up to headlines about sending in gunboats. Shameful.

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BobKowalski said:
We can’t walk away, there is no where to walk to. We are trapped by geography and are now screaming at the sky in frustration.

Brexit is just one long lament for a fictional world, as, to be honest, is a true Socialist state.

But everyone is entitled to their dreams, even if they are currently getting arse fucked by reality.
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I meant walk away from the talks, not drag the UK into the middle of the Atlantic.

The remain argument, is an argument for more capitalism at the expense of the working class. That is an OK argument to make if you are pro-capitalist and love free markets, but the remain side is in effect only arguing for the status quo. If the remain side had made an argument for integration and federalisation, an elected President, an EU army, an EU wide welfare system, an EU wide tax system and an EU wide Health service free at the point of use for all. Then maybe my head would have been turned, because it would have offered a chance for a Democratic Socialist Europe based around EU wide political parties, such as Labour joining with Bloco De Esquerda and other Leftist EU parties to push for a Socialist EU.

Instead a vote for remain would leave you under the auspices of Capitalism and RW neo-liberal orthodoxy. I can not and could not support that, it is against my principles.
 
BobKowalski said:
We can’t walk away, there is no where to walk to. We are trapped by geography and are now screaming at the sky in frustration.

Brexit is just one long lament for a fictional world, as, to be honest, is a true Socialist state.

But everyone is entitled to their dreams, even if they are currently getting arse fucked by reality.
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It feels that this first part should be reworded to reflect the reality of what we see on here:

We can’t walk away, there is no where to walk to. We are trapped by geography and I am now screaming at the sky in frustration at not being proven to be correct.
 
Ban-jani said:
He’s lied to us and that’s a separate thing to the EU making unreasonable demands.

Because Johnson has lied, doesn’t mean we should just bow to their demands.
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Well said

Johnson is a bit of a **** - but that should not be a reason to compromise the UK's future

Johnson is for the next year or 2 - getting free of the EU is for generations
 
HelloCity said:
It’s fucking disgusting what this country has become. One of the major points of the EU in the first place was to bring European countries closer together in the time following WW2 so that we’d never see conflict between our nations again (we haven’t). Now we’re ripping that apart and waking up to headlines about sending in gunboats. Shameful.

View attachment 6570
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If I was a typical Daily Mail reader I would be conflicted here that the gun boats were being taken away from stopping filthy immigrants crossing the channel.
 
mcfc1632 said:
Well said

Johnson is a bit of a **** - but that should not be a reason to compromise the UK's future

Johnson is for the next year or 2 - getting free of the EU is for generations
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You say that, but people under 50, the younger generations, voted to remain by a landslide. By in large it was the older people that tipped the vote and they’re going to be retired or no longer with us while those younger generations have to work through it. I guess what I’m saying is that it’s kinda weird to celebrate being free of the EU for generations when those upcoming generations wanted to remain.

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jaseirai said:
Point 4) The Bundesbank is insolvent and German taxpayers are currently on the hook for its recapitalisation. Spread the pain.

www.bundesbank.de

TARGET balances

Payment systems
www.bundesbank.de www.bundesbank.de
Click to expand...
Issues like these are the elephants in the room/inconvenient truths that do not get touched on by Remainers

For me the reasons that the UK simply must leave the EU are because of what is coming in the future - Remainers, in general seem to cling to their umbilical cord of what has happened in the past

It really does not take a great deal of foresight
 
jaseirai said:
Point 4) The Bundesbank is insolvent and German taxpayers are currently on the hook for its recapitalisation. Spread the pain.

www.bundesbank.de

TARGET balances

Payment systems
www.bundesbank.de www.bundesbank.de
Click to expand...
And the penny is starting to drop with German taxpayers.....

And this is at the heart of why Merkel and Macron are not aligned. As the article set out quite simply:

"Fourth and finally, the Franco-German steamroller is still there, but each of its partners has a special relationship with one of the other groups. France is the unacknowledged champion of big-spending Mediterranean Europe. Germany was the fifth member of the “frugal five” until the EU summit in July. Those commitments had quietly separated Germany from France so that even when they were singing “More Europe” in harmony, they intended different things by it. To President Macron, it was a roundabout path to ambitious programs to build more-centralized European institutions and to mutualize EU debt. Germany’s greatest fear, on the other hand, was that the EU might become a “transfer community” in which the German taxpayer ended up funding the lazy lifestyles of Southern Europe."
 
HelloCity said:
It’s fucking disgusting what this country has become. One of the major points of the EU in the first place was to bring European countries closer together in the time following WW2 so that we’d never see conflict between our nations again (we haven’t). Now we’re ripping that apart and waking up to headlines about sending in gunboats. Shameful.

View attachment 6570
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I do wonder if the Mail actually have a readership, or if they just make money off the clicks from the permanently outrage seeking things to be angry and offended about, then linking /posting on other sites so ad/click revenue comes in like a sort of pyramid / chain letter?
If you strip this 'news' down to the detail the navy are just assisting the coast guard and civil authorities - same as the MoD would do if there were a flood / fire strike etc.
 
Mazzarelli's Swiss Cheese said:
I do wonder if the Mail actually have a readership, or if they just make money off the clicks from the permanently outrage seeking things to be angry and offended about, then linking /posting on other sites so ad/click revenue comes in like a sort of pyramid / chain letter?
If you strip this 'news' down to the detail the navy are just assisting the coast guard and civil authorities - same as the MoD would do if there were a flood / fire strike etc.
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Its also the main headline for Sky News and the BBC. The point really is that we shouldn’t really be putting ourselves in a position where headlines like this can ever be created.

899AE163-9D98-46DD-B484-FF9DD16D3682.jpeg
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jaseirai said:
I think this one isn't for you or Bob.
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Shhhh - don't talk about the events of the future

As I said - inconvenient truths - and this is just one of the questions

I am sure that the Mediterranean countries have all totally overall their policies to comply - so this will be a one-off.......lol

Oh - of course - this has nothing to do with the UK has it - forever more we will be free of the impacts of the Eurozone - lol
 
HelloCity said:
It’s fucking disgusting what this country has become. One of the major points of the EU in the first place was to bring European countries closer together in the time following WW2 so that we’d never see conflict between our nations again (we haven’t). Now we’re ripping that apart and waking up to headlines about sending in gunboats. Shameful.

View attachment 6570
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LoL stupid headline

They are patrol boats and have been enforcing EU fisheries law for years.
 
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