“The work of God”?

[sniff]

Another generalisation. There is plenty of evidence to suggest that people will use religion to justify immoral acts or intolerance no one would deny that. I’d suggest a straw poll of convicted murderers, domestic and child abusers and con men wouldn’t unearth a trend to Christian fundamentalism as a motive or excuse. They tend to be amoral, irreligious cunts

How is it a generalization ? any more than what you have just said ? unless you are generalizing by saying christian fundamentalism inst real ? which it certainly is.

I can point you historically all the way to the present day the evils of organised religion, and the fall out that brings, and although is ridiculous to say either side fits one argument, and that isn't what i am saying at all. I can prove historical war crimes, humanitarian disasters and fundamentals that have destroyed millions of peoples lives.. now as people acting as an individual would not have that association i fail to see how the point you make is relevant. because you cant attribute any of bad to any one person or section of society.. You can however say that organised religion has caused countless humanitarian atrocities. It would be foolish to suggest otherwise

 

[Two Gun Bob]

"Jesus is Santa Claus for adults"' except as the messiah he transpires as a Bad Santa full of violence and mischeif with his brand of religious dogma that displays irrationality, intolerance, an alliance to racism, tribalism, and bigotry, invested in ignorance and hostile to free inquiry, contemptuous of women and coercive toward children and sectarian, and that accordingly it ought to have a great deal on its own conscience.

I found Hitchens book God Is Not Great to be a beyond the interesting read, if not a little one sided offing to this ongoing debate.

God Is Not Great - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[Two Gun Bob]

Firmly agree with all of that, except the last paragraph. Non-believers and atheists have more of a grip on morals than any religious person who thinks their morals are provided to them by their particular god of upbringing/choice (and presumably think in the absence of their particular god they’d be roaming around killing, lying, stealing and coveting their neighbours wives without said direction).

Do we as a species need religion to tell us to do what is right or wong and can we not encomaps our own moral code outlined by the varying levels of decency respect and love we afford to our fellow man.

As hitch said “Human decency is not derived from religion. It precedes it.”

 

[Ban-jani]

Likewise, no ill intended Ban-Jani, enjoy the rest of the various historical religious celebrations that coincide with December 25th and the periods thereabouts ;-).

I will do my friend, most of them copied Jesus btw ;-)

Anyway, have a lovely time between now and new year, we all deserve some enjoyment after this horrible year.

 

[Nascent Blues]

At this very moment, there will be countless numbers of animals being eaten alive by other animals. If they are mammals, most will die in agony and abject terror, a lot of them very slowly - all this completely out of the gaze and consciousness of human beings.

Now imagine the pain and suffering that has been experienced over the hundreds of millions of years since animals first evolved - the vast, vast majority of this suffering has been experienced before our distant ancestors left the trees.

Now imagine an omnipotent being who, from all the possible systems that could be designed, chose to design this particular system of evolution.

Now try and convince me this omnipotent being is benevolent.

 

[journolud]

How is it a generalization ? any more than what you have just said ? unless you are generalizing by saying christian fundamentalism inst real ? which it certainly is.

I can point you historically all the way to the present day the evils of organised religion, and the fall out that brings, and although is ridiculous to say either side fits one argument, and that isn't what i am saying at all. I can prove historical war crimes, humanitarian disasters and fundamentals that have destroyed millions of peoples lives.. now as people acting as an individual would not have that association i fail to see how the point you make is relevant. because you cant attribute any of bad to any one person or section of society.. You can however say that organised religion has caused countless humanitarian atrocities. It would be foolish to suggest otherwise

Of course I believe Christian fundamentalism is real, that’s why I referred to it. I’m also well aware that narrow interpretations of religions have been used to justify large scale muderous and barbaric acts. That doesn’t mean though that being an atheist or non believer means you have a better sense of morals than someone who follows a religion which is what you seemed to be suggesting

 

[Ban-jani]

"Jesus is Santa Claus for adults"' except as the messiah he sadly transpires as a Bad Santa full of violence and mischeif with his brand of religious dogma displaying irrationality, intolerance, an allied to racism, tribalism, and bigotry, invested in ignorance and hostile to free inquiry, contemptuous of women and coercive toward children"and sectarian, and that accordingly it ought to have a great deal on its own conscience.

I found Hitchens book God Is Not Great to be a beyond the interesting read, if not a little one sided offing to this ongoing debate.

God Is Not Great - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Big fan of you mate but have you read any of the Gospels?

Not sure how you’ve arrived at your analysis of Christ there, it’s completely and utterly wrong. Even if you don’t believe in Him or that he was who He said, he preached against hatred of anyone.

It’s like you’ve said the exact opposite of what he teached.

27 ‘But I say to you that listen, Love your enemies, do good to those who hate you, 28bless those who curse you, pray for those who abuse you. 29If anyone strikes you on the cheek, offer the other also; and from anyone who takes away your coat do not withhold even your shirt. 30Give to everyone who begs from you; and if anyone takes away your goods, do not ask for them again. 31Do to others as you would have them do to you.

32 ‘If you love those who love you, what credit is that to you? For even sinners love those who love them. 33If you do good to those who do good to you, what credit is that to you? For even sinners do the same. 34If you lend to those from whom you hope to receive, what credit is that to you? Even sinners lend to sinners, to receive as much again. 35But love your enemies, do good, and lend, expecting nothing in return.* Your reward will be great, and you will be children of the Most High; for he is kind to the ungrateful and the wicked. 36Be merciful, just as your Father is merciful.

 

[MellowJoe]

At this very moment, there will be countless numbers of animals being eaten alive by other animals. If they are mammals, most will die in agony and abject terror, a lot of them very slowly - all this completely out of the gaze and consciousness of human beings.

Now imagine the pain and suffering that has been experienced over the hundreds of millions of years since animals first evolved - the vast, vast majority of this suffering has been experienced before our distant ancestors left the trees.

Now imagine an omnipotent being who, from all the possible systems that could be designed, chose to design this particular system of evolution.

Now try and convince me this omnipotent being is benevolent.

Maybe he was forced, by another force to 'decide' between the lesser of 2 evils..
Like the trolley problem.. our poor God simply had to make a choice

 

[sniff]

Of course I believe Christian fundamentalism is real, that’s why I referred to it. I’m also well aware that narrow interpretations of religions have been used to justify large scale muderous and barbaric acts. That doesn’t mean though that being an atheist or non believer means you have a better sense of morals than someone who follows a religion which is what you seemed to be suggesting

I agree with what you said. It was just to the point in open debate, you can attribute more wrong doing to the religious motive than you can without. The catholic church has a far worse record of child abuse than any celebrity or elite group for instance. They are now historical fact's, but they get less attention. if you see my point. im not saying you are wrong btw.

 

[Deleted member 77198]

I agree with what you said. It was just to the point in open debate, you can attribute more wrong doing to the religious motive than you can without. The catholic church has a far worse record of child abuse than any celebrity or elite group for instance. They are now historical fact's, but they get less attention. if you see my point. im not saying you are wrong btw.

 

[citizen_maine]

Maybe he was forced, by another force to 'decide' between the lesser of 2 evils..
Like the trolley problem.. our poor God simply had to make a choice

wouldn't be omnipotent then?

 

[MellowJoe]

wouldn't be omnipotent then?

No, but potentially benevolent

 

[Nascent Blues]

Maybe he was forced, by another force to 'decide' between the lesser of 2 evils..
Like the trolley problem.. our poor God simply had to make a choice

They wouldn't be omnipotent then.

 

[journolud]

I agree with what you said. It was just to the point in open debate, you can attribute more wrong doing to the religious motive than you can without. The catholic church has a far worse record of child abuse than any celebrity or elite group for instance. They are now historical fact's, but they get less attention. if you see my point. im not saying you are wrong btw.

Sadly the Catholic Church has a lot to answer for in respect of covering up child abuse but it’s not as simple as saying that Catholicism condones and encourages it. Paedophiles will put themselves in a position where they have access to potential victims, the church is a great cover.

i speak as someone who spent time in a Catholic care and education system and while spared the worst of what we know happened to vulnerable children experienced enough to know there were individuals who should have been nowhere near children (or the church for that matter) but also met with kindness and compassion. Less to do with the religion they were attached to and more to do with the type of people they were

 

[Nascent Blues]

No, but potentially benevolent

Even with this, you are only providing two possible existences: this one and something worse.

 

[Two Gun Bob]

Big fan of you mate but have you read any of the Gospels?

Not sure how you’ve arrived at your analysis of Christ there, it’s completely and utterly wrong. Even if you don’t believe in Him or that he was who He said, he preached against hatred of anyone.

It’s like you’ve said the exact opposite of what he teached.

Because we are poles apart on a given subject does not mean that we are not pals. You are currently number 6 on my all time top Moon Poster List. The man was a serial killer of the highest magnitude and God help (sic) anyone who transgressed against him. God fearing indeed and never a more true phrase spoken in the history of mankind.

I particularly enjoyed the story of Noah's Ark where he drowned a whole planet because everyone had become proper naughty. How can you say to your creations, worship me or I will smite you down unto the fires of hell. In all his preaching and I have read many, he appears to portray at the very least as narcissistic and more of a dictatorship than a model of love. If he's real which he isn't, then I despise him with a vengeance and will take my chance with old nick who incidentally did little wrong. I could go on and on mentioning the cruel things our world that our populace suffers and the trials and tribulations that decent folk have to suffer daily but I wont as it always comes down to free will. I think Bad Santa suits the chap well and if any sniffing of reality pervades then he has some proper growing up to do if he want's folk to love him.

All the oddity has to do is snap his fingers and that virus has gone.

 

[ancoats]

and i give you in the words of a great man (noel gallagher)

'Cause people believe
That they're gonna get away for the summer
But you and I, we live and die
The world's still spinning 'round, we don't know why
Why? Why? Why? Why?

 

[Two Gun Bob]

No, but potentially benevolent

Only on Sundays.

 

[journolud]

Because we are poles apart on a given subject does not mean that we are not pals. You are currently number 6 on my all time top Moon Poster List. The man was a serial killer of the highest magnitude and God help (sic) anyone who transgressed against him. God fearing indeed and never a more true phrase spoken in the history of mankind.

I particularly enjoyed the story of Noah's Ark where he drowned a whole planet because everyone had become proper naughty. How can you say to your creations, worship me or I will smite you down unto the fires of hell. In all his preaching and I have read many, he appears to portray at the very least as narcissistic and more of a dictatorship than a model of love. If he's real which he isn't, then I despise him with a vengeance and will take my chance with old nick who incidentally did little wrong. I could go on and on mentioning the cruel things our world that our populace suffers and the trials and tribulations that decent folk have to daily suffer but I wont as it always comes down to free will. I think Bad Santa suits the chap well and if any sniffing of reality pervades then he has some proper growing up to do if he want's folk to love him.

All the oddity has to do is snap his fingers and that virus has gone.

Seeing as you don’t believe he’s real a lot of effort going into hedging your bets about how bad he is on the off chance he does exist.

I don’t follow a religion myself and neither believe or disbelieve in the existence of God (although I know which way I would lean) but I believe the essence of Christianity would be found in the New Testament and the story of Jesus, not in Old Testament tales

 

[Ban-jani]

Because we are poles apart on a given subject does not mean that we do not remain as pals. You are currently number 6 on my all time top Moon Poster List. The man was a serial killer of the highest magnitude and God help (sic) anyone who transgressed against him. God fearing indeed and never a more true phrase spoken in the history of mankind.

I particularly enjoyed the story of Noahs Ark where he drowned a whole planet because everyone had become proper naughty. How can you say to your creations worship me or I will smite you down unto the fires of hell. In all his preaching and I have read many, he appears to portray at the very least as narcissistic and more of a dictatorship than a model of love. If he's real which he isn't, then I despise him with a vengeance and will take my chance with old nick who incidentally did little wrong. I could go on and on mentioning the cruel things our world and populace suffers and the tribulations that decent folk have to suffer but I wont as it always comes down to free will. I think Bad Santa suits the chap well and if real has some proper growing up to do if he want folk to love him.

Absolutely correct with your first line, some of my best mates are atheists and I used to be one.

I have no problem with disagreement, life would be boring if we all agreed. Some of my mates are even Rags.

I am not going to be offended by whatever you think.

Im glad I’m up there on your list, who’s number one btw lol?

The hell point is a good one, but it can be explained. Hell isn’t for rejecting Christ, it’s for sin, Christ is merely the mechanism to avoid it. Like you don’t die from not seeing a doctor, you die from disease, but the doctor is what saves you from disease.