Oh no I get exactly what you are saying and meaning.
They’ve lost Scotland to the SNP, they’re losing and even already lost a lot of the forward thinking English left (a lot of which have just stopped voting as there’s nobody for them to vote for), they lost those who wanted a strong Leave stance to the Tories in the last GE, and lost the idiots who’ve gone over to the far right...Agree with much of that. Strangely enough there was a time when someone got it. He was aware of the image problem so much so he thought it was necessary to ram the point home. New Labour I think they called it:-)
What happened because of his successful election wins isn’t important to the point. labour keep repeating the actions that caused them to fail at elections while ignoring the actions that made them succeed.
It’s an odd and certainly strange way of running anything unless failure is acceptable to you.
And this isn’t even a new way of thinking. Jacques Fresco has been championing this since the 1970s, yet Labour have never touched on this way of thinking ever before.Labours fight to free the masses from the shackles of their lifes should be to push and promote the end of work and rise of automated labour.
Make labour and working a thing of the past and the profits of such not belong to one person or group but shared amongst all.
People then can strive not to wotk to live but to enhance their lives while our robot and AI workers provide for us
Make the financial sector and accumulation of wealth obsolete and pointless as all humanity benefits from this freedom from the shakles of work.
Saying that humams get bored easily when not distracted and as such a utopia could turn into a dystopian nightmare.
A number of us had these conversations on here with (harder) left-wingers in 2015, 2017 and 2019.Starmer or whoever is in charge needn’t concern himself with what you or I think in terms of voting. Neither of us could win it for him. If he cottons on to this and manages to sell the party in a different light then he would have a chance. Even if he has worked it out will his party let him? It’s not looking likely.
TBF he does have a whisky drinkers complexion although this csn be caused by many other things.He did look ferguson levels of red faced on sky but tbf it is cold outside
TBF he does have a whisky drinkers complexion although this csn be caused by many other things.
It's not a debate. It's mutually contradictory posts telling the party what to do. Be more left, be more central, embrace the Brexit crap, campaign to rejoin (no, no-one's saying that), let machines do the work and expect the bosses to keep workers on to enjoy their leisure, "spread all their thinking across the hugely wide ranging working class and left-sided voters". Be all things to all men, but make that all men, women and those who identify as neither or both.An interesting if rather depressing debate has broken out. It appears the good burghers of BM would like the Labour Party to become something akin the American Democrats.
Capitalism wants to turn the Labour Party into a party where capitalism has nothing to fear. In America capitalists don't fear the democrats, they own the democrats, just like Labour is now being owned by the donors. Blair was deemed the safer option to carry on the doctrines of Thatcherism than Major and the Capitalists backed Blair to the hilt, how quick was Murdoch to offer his approval.
There may be few of us who think that the world would be a better place without Capitalism but it is an ideal I hold dear because I see the ravages of Capitalism, you all see it, but choose to ignore the ravages for what ever reason that may be. I see homelessness and I see kids going hungry and I see Capitalism as the reason, it is immoral that in a nation of plenty we have such enormous inequality between the haves and the have nots. Yes there is a comfortable middle of which I expect many of the good burghers of BM exist, happy with the few crumbs thrown from the top table and content with a life of ordinariness where there is a glass ceiling they dare not approach because of the iniquities of the class and social system.
How can it be morally acceptable that one person owns so much when so many have so little, what kind of society allows that sort of existence.
I am a working class lad, I have nothing, admittedly i am not homeless or hungry and i have shoes and warm clothing but why does an accident of birth allow a person who was born like me with nothing allowed to have so much when in general so many live like me. Why does the connections of ones family matter more than ones intellect, why does one mans work ethic mean he is more valuable than the next mans work ethic. Why do we have people earning millions whilst people we see as the most valuable contributors to society earn so little. How can we measure a man whose use of capital to grow his capital makes him more valuable than the man who pulls you out of a burning house.
Capitalism is the harbringer of all that is ill in society, it produces uneducated worker drones who work for pittances to make their masters ever increasing profits. Capitalism is the great exploiter of the planet, it takes precious resource for personal rather than collective gain, it increases the power of those who already have power and diminishes the power of those with least.
It is no wonder the propaganda of the Capitalists is so effective as it allows you to think your are a success and you join in the worship at its altar because you can buy a new pair of shoes and are better off than the family down the street whose shoes are one year old.
This is what the left has to fight against, it has to rally the people to claim there share of precious resources, it doesn't have to be an equal share as the propagandists insist, there doesn't have to be equality of outcome as the propagandists opine it only has to be a fair days pay for a fair days work. It means the working class taking ownership of their own surplus value and not renting it out for a capitalist to profiteer from. That way the working class can reclaim the dignity denied them by the Capitalist class, inequality can be narrowed not extinguished because innovation and service should be rewarded. it can make help make the working class proud of the country as they are helping to build a nation where nobody goes without and every man and women has a reasonable and rewarding life.
Leftist politics isn't hard, it is not about the liberal rubbish you read from the propagandists such as the obsession with culture wars and the likes, leftist politics is about making life rewarding for all, it is about making the arts available to all, its about making sure everyone is fed and has a place to call home. It is about dignity in life, it is about pride in ones profession, it is about being decent towards your fellow man. Its wanting your children to have the best education possible so they can enjoy a life of dignity and reward, its about making sure people have the best of health and if not the best of health the best of help to enjoy a life of dignity. This creates a country where people are proud to call home, a country where Patriotism is natural and not forced, a country where extremists are dismissed as cranks and given no truck.
The left has to fight to change Capitalism, because it is only by changing Capitalism can the country become a place where everyone has the things i describe.
If Starmer takes up the cudgel and rouses the comrades then we can make the world a place like i describe, but sadly i doubt he has it in him and however much he panders to Capitalism, the things i describe will continue and the working class will remain at the beck and call of the Capitalists.
Disagree. I am a traditional labour voters but will not vote for starmer, I suspect many of the more.left leaning supporters will do likewise.A number of us had these conversations on here with (harder) left-wingers in 2015, 2017 and 2019.
Labour cannot win power unless they appeal to and attract back centrist voters (I am a typical example) - that is what Starmer is going to try and do I think
There was a definite groundswell of posters that treated a few of us as 'not good/pure enough' and we were often to told to basically fuck off
Surely - they will not be so blinkered in the run up to 2024? As I said earlier - the poster I refer to are going to vote Labour anyway (well most) - no matter what they say now - it is the centrists that Labour need to attract
So - who will you vote for if not Labour?Disagree. I am a traditional labour voters but will not vote for starmer, I suspect many of the more.left leaning supporters will do likewise.
The middle.ground voters deserted Corbyn hit want us to now support a vaccum of a leader? No chance, he has no chance and the floaty types that like him should understand why we won't support him. The usual suspects on here saying we cut off our nose to spite our face are pretty clueless and should probably just vote Tory. Labour used to stand for something, it stands for nothing now, a blairite vessel for nodding donkeys. No thanks
Disagree. I am a traditional labour voters but will not vote for starmer, I suspect many of the more.left leaning supporters will do likewise.
The middle.ground voters deserted Corbyn hit want us to now support a vaccum of a leader? No chance, he has no chance and the floaty types that like him should understand why we won't support him. The usual suspects on here saying we cut off our nose to spite our face are pretty clueless and should probably just vote Tory. Labour used to stand for something, it stands for nothing now, a blairite vessel for nodding donkeys. No thanks
Disagree. I am a traditional labour voters but will not vote for starmer, I suspect many of the more.left leaning supporters will do likewise.
The middle.ground voters deserted Corbyn hit want us to now support a vaccum of a leader? No chance, he has no chance and the floaty types that like him should understand why we won't support him. The usual suspects on here saying we cut off our nose to spite our face are pretty clueless and should probably just vote Tory. Labour used to stand for something, it stands for nothing now, a blairite vessel for nodding donkeys. No thanks
An interesting if rather depressing debate has broken out. It appears the good burghers of BM would like the Labour Party to become something akin the American Democrats.
Capitalism wants to turn the Labour Party into a party where capitalism has nothing to fear. In America capitalists don't fear the democrats, they own the democrats, just like Labour is now being owned by the donors. Blair was deemed the safer option to carry on the doctrines of Thatcherism than Major and the Capitalists backed Blair to the hilt, how quick was Murdoch to offer his approval.
There may be few of us who think that the world would be a better place without Capitalism but it is an ideal I hold dear because I see the ravages of Capitalism, you all see it, but choose to ignore the ravages for what ever reason that may be. I see homelessness and I see kids going hungry and I see Capitalism as the reason, it is immoral that in a nation of plenty we have such enormous inequality between the haves and the have nots. Yes there is a comfortable middle of which I expect many of the good burghers of BM exist, happy with the few crumbs thrown from the top table and content with a life of ordinariness where there is a glass ceiling they dare not approach because of the iniquities of the class and social system.
How can it be morally acceptable that one person owns so much when so many have so little, what kind of society allows that sort of existence.
I am a working class lad, I have nothing, admittedly i am not homeless or hungry and i have shoes and warm clothing but why does an accident of birth allow a person who was born like me with nothing allowed to have so much when in general so many live like me. Why does the connections of ones family matter more than ones intellect, why does one mans work ethic mean he is more valuable than the next mans work ethic. Why do we have people earning millions whilst people we see as the most valuable contributors to society earn so little. How can we measure a man whose use of capital to grow his capital makes him more valuable than the man who pulls you out of a burning house.
Capitalism is the harbringer of all that is ill in society, it produces uneducated worker drones who work for pittances to make their masters ever increasing profits. Capitalism is the great exploiter of the planet, it takes precious resource for personal rather than collective gain, it increases the power of those who already have power and diminishes the power of those with least.
It is no wonder the propaganda of the Capitalists is so effective as it allows you to think your are a success and you join in the worship at its altar because you can buy a new pair of shoes and are better off than the family down the street whose shoes are one year old.
This is what the left has to fight against, it has to rally the people to claim there share of precious resources, it doesn't have to be an equal share as the propagandists insist, there doesn't have to be equality of outcome as the propagandists opine it only has to be a fair days pay for a fair days work. It means the working class taking ownership of their own surplus value and not renting it out for a capitalist to profiteer from. That way the working class can reclaim the dignity denied them by the Capitalist class, inequality can be narrowed not extinguished because innovation and service should be rewarded. it can make help make the working class proud of the country as they are helping to build a nation where nobody goes without and every man and women has a reasonable and rewarding life.
Leftist politics isn't hard, it is not about the liberal rubbish you read from the propagandists such as the obsession with culture wars and the likes, leftist politics is about making life rewarding for all, it is about making the arts available to all, its about making sure everyone is fed and has a place to call home. It is about dignity in life, it is about pride in ones profession, it is about being decent towards your fellow man. Its wanting your children to have the best education possible so they can enjoy a life of dignity and reward, its about making sure people have the best of health and if not the best of health the best of help to enjoy a life of dignity. This creates a country where people are proud to call home, a country where Patriotism is natural and not forced, a country where extremists are dismissed as cranks and given no truck.
The left has to fight to change Capitalism, because it is only by changing Capitalism can the country become a place where everyone has the things i describe.
If Starmer takes up the cudgel and rouses the comrades then we can make the world a place like i describe, but sadly i doubt he has it in him and however much he panders to Capitalism, the things i describe will continue and the working class will remain at the beck and call of the Capitalists.
SNP. Who did you vote for at the last election?So - who will you vote for if not Labour?
I think you should maybe direct your point at the "labour" voters that did not vote for Corbyn and ther fore put these twats in office? Just sayin.....I didn't like Corbyn but I voted for him as I knew that whatever his failings he was better than the alternative.
But it seems you would prefer more years of over entitled Eton boys.
Each to their own I guess.
I think you should maybe direct your point at the "labour" voters that did not vote for Corbyn and ther fore put these twats in office? Just sayin.....
I was just about to reply with your last paragraph until I saw you added it.Labours fight to free the masses from the shackles of their lifes should be to push and promote the end of work and rise of automated labour.
Make labour and working a thing of the past and the profits of such not belong to one person or group but shared amongst all.
People then can strive not to wotk to live but to enhance their lives while our robot and AI workers provide for us
Make the financial sector and accumulation of wealth obsolete and pointless as all humanity benefits from this freedom from the shakles of work.
Saying that humams get bored easily when not distracted and as such a utopia could turn into a dystopian nightmare.