The Scottish Politics thread

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Mazzarelli's Swiss Cheese said:
Not sure. The SNP being relatively united is actually unusual for a political party, most contain factions and leading them is the art of preventing all out war - just look south of the border at labour or tories when it came to the EU for the last 30 yrs. I know it pisses you off when I call the snp a single issue party, but the issue (indy ref 2) at least gives all sides something to rally round and agree on.
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That is very true. There seems to have been this 'bigger picture' theme for a while now just about keeping the party somewhat focused on not tearing at itself through various tensions and fallouts. Whether this one is one stretch too far, the next few weeks or months will tell.
 
Churchlawtonblue said:
They are a single issue party in so far as thats their main goal. I guess they never actually thought they would have any reason for any other policies until Blair inacted devolution as their chances of gaining independence were slim to nothing before that. Then they found themselves in the running and suddenly had to gear up to start governing.
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Yeah, like two decades ago.
 
Coatigan said:
I don't like the concept, more than i dislike the term. And I do now believe that wasn't a jibe as well, thanks for clarifying.

But with the kindest of due respect, if you think the snp are ultra nationalist, you really don't know ultra.. or nationalist. Don't know enough about PC to really draw comparisons, but that's besides the point.
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I think the problem is that ultra-nationalist has become a dirty word because historically it tends to be associated with extreme rw/lw politics. I don't see the SNP as politically extreme in this sense so feel it's 'ok' to call them ultra-nationalist without implying they are on a par with tommy or the edl for example. Maybe nationalism is ok if it's in the face of an oppressor rather than seeking to oppress?
 
Saddleworth2 said:
Good question and I am only reporting perceptions of what I have read.
I think when the term Unionist is used it means not being aggressive enough or fast enough at progressing independence. The loonier elements actually suggest she is in cahoots with the Westminster tories.

the big question is, are this lot capable, intelligent, experienced, wise enough to deliver independence and my conclusions over the last few months is no. They really aren’t.

there really needs to be some kind of umbrella organisation that represents independence and has contributions from those political parties which support it. Just now Greens and SNP. We need to decouple the vote for political parties from referendum. Bit of a ramble after a bottle of rioja.
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Nothing wrong with a Rioja ramble on a Friday night and thanks to yourself and @blueparrot for replying.
Im genuinely interested in the Scottish mindset but confess I’m not au fait with Scottish politics but do have admiration for the discipline of all in this thread, for conducting a civil debate.
 
BlueAnorak said:
Staggering claims by Salmond.
Sturgeon didn't help herself by her comments in her daily political broadcast the other day mind.
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Watched most of Salmond evidence whilst I don't have a view on independence subject to financial fairness must admit he is still an impressive politition.
 
Gray said:
Love Scotland and its people, but if that obnoxious woman is forced to resign then I shall be delighted.
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Whoever takes over (if that happens) could/would be a lot lot worse. Both in how you interpret her, and how the Scots in general (even the non nats) do.

She is balanced and restrained, more than you realise, and she is fighting an appetite for a much bigger push of the independence charge.

Despite the polls suggesting an immediate dip as well, if she resigns, i can see a true surge for the SNP im the election, some of it fueled by those feeling held back by her measured slow approach, some feeling victimised in losing a very capable person leading through insanely tough times, and the Greens, if they vote against her imho effectively being finished, as most of those left leaning voters will likely turn to the snp.

That is my honest take on it, no agenda or point scoring.

Careful what you wish for.
 
Coatigan said:
Whoever takes over (if that happens) could/would be a lot lot worse. Both in how you interpret her, and how the Scots in general (even the non nats) do.

She is balanced and restrained, more than you realise, and she is fighting an appetite for a much bigger push of the independence charge.

Despite the polls suggesting an immediate dip as well, if she resigns, i can see a true surge for the SNP im the election, some of it fueled by those feeling held back by her measured slow approach, some feeling victimised in losing a very capable person leading through insanely tough times, and the Greens, if they vote against her imho effectively being finished, as most of those left leaning voters will likely turn to the snp.

That is my honest take on it, no agenda or point scoring.

Careful what you wish for.
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Very well thought out reply and I respect your opinion, but sorry I just can not take to her.
 
Coatigan said:
Whoever takes over (if that happens) could/would be a lot lot worse. Both in how you interpret her, and how the Scots in general (even the non nats) do.

She is balanced and restrained, more than you realise, and she is fighting an appetite for a much bigger push of the independence charge.

Despite the polls suggesting an immediate dip as well, if she resigns, i can see a true surge for the SNP im the election, some of it fueled by those feeling held back by her measured slow approach, some feeling victimised in losing a very capable person leading through insanely tough times, and the Greens, if they vote against her imho effectively being finished, as most of those left leaning voters will likely turn to the snp.

That is my honest take on it, no agenda or point scoring.

Careful what you wish for.
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Bang on. Those that think she is the devil incarnate are just so wrong. As Phil Kay once said, 'its not the monsters in the cupboard you should worry about, its the burglers coming through the window'.

There is a faction of the SNP that consider her to be too wedded to the status quo and in cahoots with westminster. There will be a big push to replace her with someone a damn sight more aggressive.

And obviously, if she resigns then Johnson and the entire cabinet should also go as they have far more reason to. Fwiw, I don't believe it will happen (resign). She should tough it out.
 
Gray said:
Very well thought out reply and I respect your opinion, but sorry I just can not take to her.
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Maybe if you had followed her daily briefings on the virus since the start you would see what very many scots have seen. Competent, articulate, detailed, honest, human and empathetic. I can certainly understand why anyone in England would think badly of her given the hatchet job the media usually apply.
 
Saddleworth2 said:
Bang on. Those that think she is the devil incarnate are just so wrong. As Phil Kay once said, 'its not the monsters in the cupboard you should worry about, its the burglers coming through the window'.

There is a faction of the SNP that consider her to be too wedded to the status quo and in cahoots with westminster. There will be a big push to replace her with someone a damn sight more aggressive.

And obviously, if she resigns then Johnson and the entire cabinet should also go as they have far more reason to. Fwiw, I don't believe it will happen (resign). She should tough it out.
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Your last paragraph is just one of the many examples of what i mean by the backlash and feeling of unfairness that would turn into even more votes for the snp. I already know a couple tory voting anti-nats, who think she is the best person for the job, say if she goes for something as trivial as the timing of salmond's case knowledge, they'll be tempted to vote snp.
 
Coatigan said:
Your last paragraph is just one of the many examples of what i mean by the backlash and feeling of unfairness that would turn into even more votes for the snp. I already know a couple tory voting anti-nats, who think she is the best person for the job, say if she goes for something as trivial as the timing of salmond's case knowledge, they'll be tempted to vote snp.
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I really couldn't care less that she has her dates mixed/told an untruth about them. I watched Salmond last Friday with his faux 'humble but truthful' demeanour. He is playing a bloody game with the Scottish people and I sincerely hope it backfires on him.

You just need to look who now supports him - the English red tops, Andrew Neil, JRM........
You really couldn't make it up.
 
Saddleworth2 said:
I really couldn't care less that she has her dates mixed/told an untruth about them. I watched Salmond last Friday with his faux 'humble but truthful' demeanour. He is playing a bloody game with the Scottish people and I sincerely hope it backfires on him.

You just need to look who now supports him - the English red tops, Andrew Neil, JRM........
You really couldn't make it up.
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I know Rigt! Just shows how agenda driven it is. Whether it is the more radical indy lot that would want her replaced with someone more aggressive, or the radical 'unionists' that would support someone much harder just to get her out. The reality is she is pretty damn moderate. And she resonates well with the moderates, at least in Scotland, regardless of where they sit on the independence spectrum.

And if she is made to resign, it just further divides up the middle ground and pulls to one side or the other.



I agree with you btw, i don't think she should resign, i think she should tough it out. And i believe most Scots are sensible enough to see that and longer term to accept it as the fair and right thing.
 
From the evidence being given, and made public, I struggle to see what was so wrong, or 'botched' as claimed.

How I understand it, Salmond expected to be exempt from the investigation, as a former rather than current minister. Once he was under investigation, he expected the same options/routes available to him as a current minister.

With those expectations, i can see why he feels done over, but right or wrong, they are at odds with each other.

I do also believe when she says it was done over such a long stretch and so forensicly to avoid cutting corners, rather than to ensure he suffers. You can bet if there was even a hint of effort to protect him, it would have been a scandal.

Ultimately, it is down to a legal mechanism interpretation, the court can decide whether that was interepreted and followed correctly or not. Doesn't change the fact, for him, that he was cleared through the legal system in place. And certainly doesn't prove there was an agenda against him, just that the legalities were either correctly or incorrectly applied.

And there is the small matter of the timing of her knowledge. Knowing 3 days earlier verbally than formally in writing. If that is the big conspiracy lie that warrants resignation, we'r in for some very truthful politcs going forward!
 
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Saddleworth2 said:
I really couldn't care less that she has her dates mixed/told an untruth about them. I watched Salmond last Friday with his faux 'humble but truthful' demeanour. He is playing a bloody game with the Scottish people and I sincerely hope it backfires on him.

You just need to look who now supports him - the English red tops, Andrew Neil, JRM........
You really couldn't make it up.
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I assume by "supporting Salmond" you mean "using anything they can shout about to go after Sturgeon"?
 
Coatigan said:
Whoever takes over (if that happens) could/would be a lot lot worse. Both in how you interpret her, and how the Scots in general (even the non nats) do.

She is balanced and restrained, more than you realise, and she is fighting an appetite for a much bigger push of the independence charge.

Despite the polls suggesting an immediate dip as well, if she resigns, i can see a true surge for the SNP im the election, some of it fueled by those feeling held back by her measured slow approach, some feeling victimised in losing a very capable person leading through insanely tough times, and the Greens, if they vote against her imho effectively being finished, as most of those left leaning voters will likely turn to the snp.

That is my honest take on it, no agenda or point scoring.

Careful what you wish for.
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As the Tories and their media allies seem hell bent on getting rid of her she must be doing something right.
 
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