Liverpool thread 2020/21

[Nebuchadnezzar]

Where's Greggary these days?

 

[Blue Mist]

Typical police lies. It's been comprehensively shown that ticketless fans weren't a significant issue as the Taylor Report showed that there was about as many people in the Leppings Lane as tickets issued. There was no army of ticketless fans. And the well-established operational plan, which Duckenfield chose to ignore, had police cordons on Leppings Lane checking tickets so no ticketless fans could get to the turnstiles. So even if they did, that was all down to a negligent Match Commander.

And alcohol wasn't an issue, despite the police insisting that all the victims were tested for alcohol in the blood. None were found to have consumed significant amounts. And if they did, so what? People have a drink before football matches.

The fact is that Hillsborough, as an unsafe stadium, was an accident waiting to happen at that time. But even that might have been avoided except that Duckenfield fucked up time and time again, knew he'd fucked up almost instantly and in true police fashion a cover up was instituted by lying and briefing the media. That's a tactic the police clearly still use today. He knew he'd given the order to open the gates yet told a barefaced lie that fans had forced it just minutes later. He was a lazy, lying, negligent **** and should have served time.

And those lies played a large part in how we're treated as fans over 30 years on., with not being allowed to drink at our seats, on coaches or on trains, along with other numerous humiliations.

One point I would make @Prestwich_Blue
No one is saying the deceased were drunk but many of us know how some of their fans behaved then (and still do) Alcohol and bad behaviour played a part in an appalling tragedy that cost innocent people their life. Their behaviour during the 2 coach attacks is on a smaller scale but ultimately could prove very costly for an innocent person

 

[Blue Mist]

Where's Greggary these days?

He's now a Leicester fan

 

[rickmcfc]

Typical police lies. It's been comprehensively shown that ticketless fans weren't a significant issue as the Taylor Report showed that there was about as many people in the Leppings Lane as tickets issued. There was no army of ticketless fans. And the well-established operational plan, which Duckenfield chose to ignore, had police cordons on Leppings Lane checking tickets so no ticketless fans could get to the turnstiles. So even if they did, that was all down to a negligent Match Commander.

And alcohol wasn't an issue, despite the police insisting that all the victims were tested for alcohol in the blood. None were found to have consumed significant amounts. And if they did, so what? People have a drink before football matches.

The fact is that Hillsborough, as an unsafe stadium, was an accident waiting to happen at that time. But even that might have been avoided except that Duckenfield fucked up time and time again, knew he'd fucked up almost instantly and in true police fashion a cover up was instituted by lying and briefing the media. That's a tactic the police clearly still use today. He knew he'd given the order to open the gates yet told a barefaced lie that fans had forced it just minutes later. He was a lazy, lying, negligent **** and should have served time.

And those lies played a large part in how we're treated as fans over 30 years on., with not being allowed to drink at our seats, on coaches or on trains, along with other numerous humiliations.

I understand and take on board what you are saying, and of course the police were at fault for part of the outcome on that day, only an idiot would suggest otherwise. The part that infuriates the most is the complete disregard that Liverpool fans contributed in any way shape or form. Football stadiums, along with every aspect of life we’re handled very differently in the 1980’s, health and safety especially. Looking back 30 odd years later to say that “this was wrong” by today’s standards is completely unacceptable and you can’t judge something that happened using today’s protocols as a benchmark. That day was fucked up on so many levels, and lots of factors are contributing to the awful outcome that saw 96 people never return from a football match, to state (regardless of and court ruling) that there was one factor that resulted in the outcome is ridiculous.
Liverpool fans had a reputation prior to Hillsborough, read any of the autobiographies of former Liverpool hooligans who actively advertise what they were up to, look at the history books, newspapers, eye witness accounts, and bringing it right up to date, 2 years ago when they decided that bottles and bricks been hurled onto City buses as they approached Anfield was an acceptable form of behaviour. They are a different breed, a few screws loose who are ashamed of nothing on their tarnished past, yet are the first to be offended at the slightest thing.
To conclude, Liverpool FC and their fans are a disgrace on the modern game and an embarrassment not only to themselves, but English football which has done so much (yet still has so much to do) to remove the thuggish tag that marred the game for so long. Don’t even get me started on the racist angle and take on the club, that’s for a different day

 

[blue b4 the moon]

Typical police lies. It's been comprehensively shown that ticketless fans weren't a significant issue as the Taylor Report showed that there was about as many people in the Leppings Lane as tickets issued. There was no army of ticketless fans. And the well-established operational plan, which Duckenfield chose to ignore, had police cordons on Leppings Lane checking tickets so no ticketless fans could get to the turnstiles. So even if they did, that was all down to a negligent Match Commander.

And alcohol wasn't an issue, despite the police insisting that all the victims were tested for alcohol in the blood. None were found to have consumed significant amounts. And if they did, so what? People have a drink before football matches.

The fact is that Hillsborough, as an unsafe stadium, was an accident waiting to happen at that time. But even that might have been avoided except that Duckenfield fucked up time and time again, knew he'd fucked up almost instantly and in true police fashion a cover up was instituted by lying and briefing the media. That's a tactic the police clearly still use today. He knew he'd given the order to open the gates yet told a barefaced lie that fans had forced it just minutes later. He was a lazy, lying, negligent **** and should have served time.

And those lies played a large part in how we're treated as fans over 30 years on., with not being allowed to drink at our seats, on coaches or on trains, along with other numerous humiliations.

The fans inside were predominately ticket holders, if I'd have been at that game I'd have been inside already and that's why the deaths were valid supporters however, the masses outside I'd suggest were less likely to have tickets.

As with @bluebanana83 I did a lot of background stuff on this, I applied for a job to work on the enquiry gathering statements but wasn't successful.

 

[gordondaviesmoustache]

Typical police lies. It's been comprehensively shown that ticketless fans weren't a significant issue as the Taylor Report showed that there was about as many people in the Leppings Lane as tickets issued. There was no army of ticketless fans. And the well-established operational plan, which Duckenfield chose to ignore, had police cordons on Leppings Lane checking tickets so no ticketless fans could get to the turnstiles. So even if they did, that was all down to a negligent Match Commander.

And alcohol wasn't an issue, despite the police insisting that all the victims were tested for alcohol in the blood. None were found to have consumed significant amounts. And if they did, so what? People have a drink before football matches.

The fact is that Hillsborough, as an unsafe stadium, was an accident waiting to happen at that time. But even that might have been avoided except that Duckenfield fucked up time and time again, knew he'd fucked up almost instantly and in true police fashion a cover up was instituted by lying and briefing the media. That's a tactic the police clearly still use today. He knew he'd given the order to open the gates yet told a barefaced lie that fans had forced it just minutes later. He was a lazy, lying, negligent **** and should have served time.

And those lies played a large part in how we're treated as fans over 30 years on., with not being allowed to drink at our seats, on coaches or on trains, along with other numerous humiliations.

Well said PB. People should be able to readily distinguish Hillsborough and Heysel and each tragedy’s associated culpability.

 

[Prestwich_Blue]

I understand and take on board what you are saying, and of course the police were at fault for part of the outcome on that day, only an idiot would suggest otherwise. The part that infuriates the most is the complete disregard that Liverpool fans contributed in any way shape or form. Football stadiums, along with every aspect of life we’re handled very differently in the 1980’s, health and safety especially. Looking back 30 odd years later to say that “this was wrong” by today’s standards is completely unacceptable and you can’t judge something that happened using today’s protocols as a benchmark. That day was fucked up on so many levels, and lots of factors are contributing to the awful outcome that saw 96 people never return from a football match, to state (regardless of and court ruling) that there was one factor that resulted in the outcome is ridiculous.
Liverpool fans had a reputation prior to Hillsborough, read any of the autobiographies of former Liverpool hooligans who actively advertise what they were up to, look at the history books, newspapers, eye witness accounts, and bringing it right up to date, 2 years ago when they decided that bottles and bricks been hurled onto City buses as they approached Anfield was an acceptable form of behaviour. They are a different breed, a few screws loose who are ashamed of nothing on their tarnished past, yet are the first to be offended at the slightest thing.
To conclude, Liverpool FC and their fans are a disgrace on the modern game and an embarrassment not only to themselves, but English football which has done so much (yet still has so much to do) to remove the thuggish tag that marred the game for so long. Don’t even get me started on the racist angle and take on the club, that’s for a different day

I've certainly no love for these feral Liverpool-supporting scum who behave badly but it's simply wrong to link that to Hillsborough.

A lot of things went wrong on the day but the two biggest contributory factors by far were the stadium and the police management of the pre-match build up of fans. Alcohol & tickets weren't significant factors, if they were even factors at all.

Those buying into and propagating "they were all pissed" lies simply contribute to the bias against football fans displayed by the authorities. There's a connection between mindlessly spouting that and the fact we can't be trusted to have a drink on the trains and coaches taking us to games.

 

[BlueLou82]

Good to see

Based on this, I expect some moments of introspection from the bus wreckers and subsequent amendment of behaviour moving forward, both as a club and fanbase.
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Sorry, ignore that. I just realised I’m in completely the wrong Universe?

No they wont give a shit what she said as they are vile.

 

[FightLikeAGirl]

I found out from a fellow blue last night that when Juventus did an anniversary ceremony for Heysel, Liverpool tried to send representatives and Juventus told them where to go. Well played, those zebras.

 

[edinburgh123]

I worked on it for over three years.

True it wasn’t the one persons fault who they tried to pin it on. There was also no cover up!

It was a combination of factors that all created the perfect storm. (FA allocation, ticketless fans, drunkenness, inexperienced match commander, inadequate health and safety regs at the stadium, pens erected at the stadiums to contain fathe glorious weather, the fact the Grand National was on, the fact the Snooker Championships had started, the fact Everton were playing in the other semi) All of these had an impact some more than others but it created a unique scenario.

Even Beardsley hitting the bar in the first minute...that created the initial big surge if I recall.

Sadly it would have happened at one of the big stadiums sooner than later as health and safety was the least of the worries back then and clubs were ran like corner shops.

To me, you are missing one of the key points which pretty much everyone in football knew and inevitably you must have known from interviewing fans at other clubs...Every football follower who went frequently to games knew Sheff Wed pens behind the goal were a nightmare if you got in the middle ones and there was always crushes at every game for away fans with big followings. I always used to make my way to the corner ones - view not as good but knew I could breathe comfortably. The problem with the FA Cup is 20,000 fans turn up from Liverpool and a good 10-15000 of them are not regular away followers. They wouldn't know. The question though, is those that arrived late and pushed from the back - were they part of the 10-15000 or were some of them "regular away fans" who definitely knew the problem of that stadium, and if so were culpable in some degree?

 

[FightLikeAGirl]

Wasn't there a near accident at Hillsborough before the actual disaster? That place was an accident waiting to happen.

 

[solley attwell]

What I don't understand is LFC knew about the bus welcome last night as they did against us. So why didn't they issue a statement BEFORE the arrival saying any fans engaged in anti social behaviour would be banned for life. Maybe they seen how rattled we were and hoped that it would work again and then come out with some mealy mouthed apology. What LFC fail to grasp is that the actions of their fans have now put the lives of good innocent fans at stake the next time they go Madrid and just like with Sean Cox they will all shake their heads and wonder why?

 

[Prestwich_Blue]

To me, you are missing one of the key points which pretty much everyone in football knew and inevitably you must have known from interviewing fans at other clubs...Every football follower who went frequently to games knew Sheff Wed pens behind the goal were a nightmare if you got in the middle ones and there was always crushes at every game for away fans with big followings. I always used to make my way to the corner ones - view not as good but knew I could breathe comfortably. The problem with the FA Cup is 20,000 fans turn up from Liverpool and a good 10-15000 of them are not regular away followers. They wouldn't know. The question though, is those that arrived late and pushed from the back - were they part of the 10-15000 or were some of them "regular away fans" who definitely knew the problem of that stadium, and if so were culpable in some degree?

I've only been there since the disaster but having seen film footage of the stadium at the time, the signage for the outer pens was almost invisible. The obvious place to go was the central pens, particularly when it was clear that thr game had already started. But the operational plan was supposed to deal with that, by sealing off those pens if they were seen to be full, and directing fans to the outer pens.

It should have been clear well before kick-off that the central pens were already dangerously full. In fact, it WAS clear, as TV and CCTV footage later showed. Yet again, the Match Commander, Duckenfield, failed to notice or react. Once the gate was opened, the disaster unfolded as an unrestricted flow of fans instinctively headed into the already overcrowded central pens, which shouldn't have been allowed to happen. The final piece in the jigsaw was the collapse of one of the crush barriers, which led the crowd to fall forward, crush people under foot and suffocate those packs so tightly that they simply couldn't breathe.

 

[feedmpenzaandhewillscore]

Wasn't there a near accident at Hillsborough before the actual disaster? That place was an accident waiting to happen.

Think it may have been involving Spurs fans and over crowding. The FA should have never have let the semi final play there with a ground that had an out of date safety certificate.

 

[birch villa]

Wasn't there a near accident at Hillsborough before the actual disaster? That place was an accident waiting to happen.

Went there around that time always remember being rammed in to a couple ov pens while one was empty next to us

 

[bobbyowenquiff]

Typical police lies. It's been comprehensively shown that ticketless fans weren't a significant issue as the Taylor Report showed that there was about as many people in the Leppings Lane as tickets issued. There was no army of ticketless fans. And the well-established operational plan, which Duckenfield chose to ignore, had police cordons on Leppings Lane checking tickets so no ticketless fans could get to the turnstiles. So even if they did, that was all down to a negligent Match Commander.

And alcohol wasn't an issue, despite the police insisting that all the victims were tested for alcohol in the blood. None were found to have consumed significant amounts. And if they did, so what? People have a drink before football matches.

The fact is that Hillsborough, as an unsafe stadium, was an accident waiting to happen at that time. But even that might have been avoided except that Duckenfield fucked up time and time again, knew he'd fucked up almost instantly and in true police fashion a cover up was instituted by lying and briefing the media. That's a tactic the police clearly still use today. He knew he'd given the order to open the gates yet told a barefaced lie that fans had forced it just minutes later. He was a lazy, lying, negligent **** and should have served time.

And those lies played a large part in how we're treated as fans over 30 years on, with not being allowed to drink at our seats, on coaches or on trains, along with other numerous humiliations.

Spot-on. Anyone who had visited that stadium knew it was an accident waiting to happen. There was a huge cover up and that will become even clearer over the next few weeks when the trial starts of some of those who are alleged to have been involved.
There are plenty of reasons to criticise Liverpool fans over the decades but not relating to that disaster. Most of us of a certain age can remember how fans were treated by the police in the 70s and 80s. That tragedy could have happened with any set of fans (it nearly did with Spurs). It was a national disgrace and, even today, some people continue to believe the smears put out by the authorities at the time.

 

[shackattack]

One of the initial reports into Hillsborough stated there was actually less fans in that stand than it was safe for. The problem was they were all in the central pens- the pens either side were near empty in comparison. Wasn't there so can't comment but those that were said the ticket touts were struggling to sell. The demand just wasn't there. A lot went through without showing tickets and as they weren't funnelled away from the central pens they went down the tunnel and sadly the inevitable crushing occurred

 

[bobbyowenquiff]

To me, you are missing one of the key points which pretty much everyone in football knew and inevitably you must have known from interviewing fans at other clubs...Every football follower who went frequently to games knew Sheff Wed pens behind the goal were a nightmare if you got in the middle ones and there was always crushes at every game for away fans with big followings. I always used to make my way to the corner ones - view not as good but knew I could breathe comfortably. The problem with the FA Cup is 20,000 fans turn up from Liverpool and a good 10-15000 of them are not regular away followers. They wouldn't know. The question though, is those that arrived late and pushed from the back - were they part of the 10-15000 or were some of them "regular away fans" who definitely knew the problem of that stadium, and if so were culpable in some degree?

The worst crushes I have been in following City were at Leppings Lane and the Scoreboard End at Old Trafford. I went to Hillsborough for a game in the 80s (think it ended 0-0). The crowd was only 30,000 plus but it was so dangerous in the City end we left at half time. I also had a terrible experience at Old Trafford at one Cup game (lots of our fans had jibbed in). We had to climb up into the top section to get away from it. Fans were treated like cattle.
One of the reasons why the Hillsbro cover-up worked was that so many people "wanted to believe" Liverpool fans were to blame because of their poor reputation from Heysel. It was easy for the police to push the blame onto their fans and the tabloid media lapped it up.

 

[BrianW]

A lot of the official lies were believed at the time (and to a point still are) precisely because of the reputation Liverpool fans had at the time, as one of the most outrageously ill-behaved fan bases in this or any other country. It's the old story of 'give a dog a bad name.'

Now, it is true that the 'bad element' were always a minority, just as today's feral scum are a minority, but unfortunately mud sticks, and it doesn't just stick to that minority, but to all.

In the same way, if 500 City fans were responsible for something outrageous this weekend - let's say they burned down a pub, or whatever - does anyone think it would have no impact on the image of City fans in general?

 

[GaudinoMotors]

Psyche.
Very difficult to quantify.