Afghanistan

ZenHalfTimeCrock said:
The situation with respect to Pakistan is a bit more complex than many realize, as this excellent and revealing book review demonstrates:

www.google.co.uk

Pakistan: A Hard Country by Anatol Lieven – review

Anatol Lieven's clear-sighted study asks if Pakistan has lost control of its international narrative
www.google.co.uk www.google.co.uk

Here's an extract from it:

'Some of Lieven's cliché-busting seems straightforward enough. Islamist politics, he demonstrates, are extremely weak in Pakistan, even if they provoke hysterical headlines in the west. Secularists may see popular allegiance to Islam as one of the biggest problems. But, as Lieven rightly says, "the cults of the saints, and the Sufi orders and Barelvi theology which underpin them, are an immense obstacle to the spread of Taliban and sectarian extremism, and of Islamist politics in general."

From afar, a majority of Pakistanis appear fanatically anti-American while also being hopelessly infatuated with Sharia. Lieven shows that, as in Latin America, anti-Americanism in Pakistan is characterised less by racial or religious supremacism than by a political bitterness about a supposed ally that is perceived to be ruthlessly pursuing its own interests while claiming virtue for its blackest deeds. And if many Pakistanis seem to prefer Islamic or tribal legal codes, it is not because they love stoning women to death but because the modern institutions of the police and judiciary inherited from the British are shockingly corrupt, not to mention profoundly ill-suited to a poor country.'

Lieven’s lengthy and extensive study (which I read a couple of years ago and can vouch for - it's very sane and well-balanced) has been in print for a while, and so may be slightly dated by now.

But his Twitter feed isn't, and it provides links to authoritative articles of interest, as well as some caustic observations of his own about recent events. Certainly, as a professor and former journalist, who was based in Afghanistan and Pakistan, he is well-placed to comment, and he would be my go-to person if I was seeking to keep tabs on what is taking place in that part of the world.

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And if many Pakistanis seem to prefer Islamic or tribal legal codes, it is not because they love stoning women to death but because the modern institutions of the police and judiciary inherited from the British are shockingly corrupt, not to mention profoundly ill-suited to a poor country.'

Pakistan will celebrate 73 years of independence tomorrow. How long before they can claim to have a police and judiciary system of their own? 100 years? 300?
There’s a reason Obama didn’t inform the Pakistan leaders that they were taking Bin Laden out on Pakistani territory. And it wasn’t because he wanted them to have an undisturbed night’s sleep.
 
In the least surprising news of the last decade, The Taliban are about to take control of Afghanistan following the withdrawal of troops from there.

Thousands of civilians and Service people have lost their lives and all for nought
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A betrayal of our Armed Forces and the good people of Afghanistan by the Governments of the US and the UK
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johnnytapia said:
Pakistan will celebrate 73 years of independence tomorrow. How long before they can claim to have a police and judiciary system of their own? 100 years? 300?
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One of the reasons I read Lieven a few years ago was to better understand the background of quite a few of the GCSE and A Level students I was teaching back then, (many had family links with the country, while some were members of the Ahmadiyya community, who are appallingly treated).

Turns out that the father of one of them had been a high-ranking policeman. This was at the time of Musharaff. Your rhetorical question would have been an interesting one to put to him.

‘Fissiparous’ was a new word I learned from reading Lieven. It’s one that he deploys a fair bit, probably because it sums up the place.
 
Tragic. A sad indictment on the shabby politicians. A sad legacy for soldiers who fought for them. An even sadder one for those about to be brutalised.

It’s not our job to police and/or try to reconstruct Stone Age Moslem countries. Their values are not ours. We should never intervene again in such circumstances.
 
ZenHalfTimeCrock said:
One of the reasons I read Lieven a few years ago was to better understand the background of quite a few of the GCSE and A Level students I was teaching back then, (many had family links with the country, while some were members of the Ahmadiyya community, who are appallingly treated).

Turns out that the father of one of them had been a high-ranking policeman. This was at the time of Musharaff. Your rhetorical question would have been an interesting one to put to him.

‘Fissiparous’ was a new word I learned from reading Lieven. It’s one that he deploys a fair bit, probably because it sums up the place.
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I guess “fissure” comes from the same root. And the splits now being seen in Afghanistan aren’t just political; they’re lines that will pit murdering Neanderthals against swathes of innocents. Tragic
 
sir baconface said:
Tragic. A sad indictment on the shabby politicians. A sad legacy for soldiers who fought for them. An even sadder one for those about to be brutalised.

It’s not our job to police and/or try to reconstruct Stone Age Moslem countries. Their values are not ours. We should never intervene again in such circumstances.
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So long as the Islamists can stick to their religious beliefs, take over the country then stick rigorously to those beliefs, whilst spreading Islam's peaceful mission, fine. Shame for their women though, from a western viewpoint. Not sure how they square funding everything through the sale of opium and its derivatives when any narcotic is anathema to Islam. They need to educate the world on that one.
Twats!
 
johnnytapia said:
I guess “fissure” comes from the same root. And the splits now being seen in Afghanistan aren’t just political; they’re lines that will pit murdering Neanderthals against swathes of innocents. Tragic
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A point well-demonstrated many times over by the Afghan movie director Siddiq Barmak in his extraordinary film ‘Osama’ (which is not about bin Laden).

The whole film can be viewed with English subtitles here in case anyone is interested.

www.magazinecontemporaryculture.com

Osama, 2003 by Siddiq Barmak

Osama (Persian: اسامه‎‎) is a 2003 drama film made in Afghanistan by Siddiq Barmak. The film follows a pre-teen girl living in Afghanistan under the Taliban regime who disguises herself as a boy, O…
www.magazinecontemporaryculture.com

Used to show it to my GCSE students when I taught Islam.
 
ZenHalfTimeCrock said:
A point well-demonstrated many times over by the Afghan movie director Siddiq Barmak in his extraordinary film ‘Osama’ (which is not about bin Laden).

The whole film can be viewed with English subtitles here in case anyone is interested.

www.magazinecontemporaryculture.com

Osama, 2003 by Siddiq Barmak

Osama (Persian: اسامه‎‎) is a 2003 drama film made in Afghanistan by Siddiq Barmak. The film follows a pre-teen girl living in Afghanistan under the Taliban regime who disguises herself as a boy, O…
www.magazinecontemporaryculture.com

Used to show it to my GCSE students when I taught Islam.
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An absolute must read
 
DTKOAG said:
Another major Tony Blair fook up.
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No it isn’t. Any British PM would have supported the US as did dozens of allies in 2001 after 9/11. In retrospect, trying to impose democracy after initially defeating the Taliban was the mistake. Should have just handed it over to the Northern Alliance warlords and others that were on our side and left in the mid 2000s.
 
johnnytapia said:
An absolute must read
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There was a period when I was absolutely immersed in academic works and reputable journalistic writing about Islam, Islamic history, Middle Eastern politics, Iran, the 'War on Terror', ISIS etc.

You can get addicted to this kind of literature because it is replete with counter-intuitive truths that challenge the popular understanding of, for instance, the dynamics of radicalization, or the portrayal of Islam as some kind of monolithic, inherently intolerant entity.

Of course, Ghost Wars turns out to be one I haven't read (so thanks for the recommendation). And I have never got around to reading books that focus exclusively on either the Taliban and Afghanistan, though I do have Ahmed Rashid's book and Jason Elliot's widely acclaimed An Unexpected Light: Travels in Afghanistan sitting unread in my bookcase.

Recently, for various reasons, I haven't been able to keep up with this kind of material. But former FBI interrogator Ali Soufan's The Black Banners Declassified has come out recently and would appear to overlap with the territory covered by Coll. I bought a copy because - having recently watched the deeply flawed but entertaining series Homeland, and the excellent Le Bureau de Legendes (The Bureau), I was curious as to the reality of how real life operatives in the 'War on Terror' go about things. So you may want to check Soufan out.
 
mammutly said:
It's time all the troops were pulled out.
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As much as the US - and perhaps other western democracies - would like to believe - regime change forced by external intervention, just doesn't seem to work. Afghanistan is but the latest example.

So yes, I agree - withdraw from Afghanistan. Take immediate action only to insure the safe withdrawal of our forces and diplomats. And too - I very much hope - those who have helped us and whose lives are now in danger.

Once personnel have been withdrawn - intervene only if there's a tangible national security risk - and then, intervene tactically; neutralize the security threat with as little involvement as possible.
 
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Leave them to it, their country, their religion. If it gives them a sense of completion for their warped religion and stops them wanting to take over the world then great, maybe now we'll learn to keep our fucking beak out of others business.
 
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