Coronavirus (2021) thread

[marco]

Vaccinated people are in hospital and dying too by the way.

Let me ask you a simple question, do you think it right to force people to take an experimental vaccine? I'll add again, that I've had 2 jabs, so far, but I find it totally unacceptable to force anyone to take it.

if the argument is about treating the non vaccinated and having them clog the NHS then 'and it dosnt sound good' is no vaccine no priority, vaccinated people will be treated first, anti smokers have been saying for years that the NHS should not finance illness due to smoking, other than that to force vaccine on someone while there is no recall in the courts should they develope illness in the future because we dont know enough about any possible long term future affects is unaceptable

 

[crooky]

Rotterdam police clash with rioters as Covid protest turns violent

Seven people are injured in Rotterdam as protests against new coronavirus curbs turn violent.

www.bbc.com

Rotterdam riots: Injuries and arrests during 'orgy of violence' at COVID-19 protest that saw police open fire

Hundreds of demonstrators torched cars, set off fireworks and threw rocks at police, forcing officers - fearing for their lives - to respond with "direct shots" and water cannon.

news.sky.com

2 wounded after shots fired at Covid protest in Netherlands

At least two people were wounded by police gunfire in the Dutch city of Rotterdam after a protest over renewed Covid-19 restrictions spiraled into a violent riot, seeing demonstrators torch a squad car and clash with officers.

www.rt.com

Dutch police open fire at COVID protests amid ‘orgy of violence’

Dozens arrested and seven injured after protests against partial lockdown turn violent.

www.aljazeera.com

They were starting to filter through just before I went to bed last night.

Sorry I didn't make it clear but at the time I meant nothing was showing on their TV channels.

 

[BlueAnorak]

Access Restricted

Sage reckon average hospitalisons will fall to less than 500 day during December and and average deaths below 100.
I would say great news but Sage modelling has never been anywhere near correct.
They might under cook the pudding this time.
So who knows.

 

[paulchapo]

The bold section is incorrect. Vaccinated people catch and spread COVID, yes, but at a much lower rate than unvaccinated people.

unvaccinated people are also disproportionately ending up in hospital and causing a huge, unnecessary strain on the NHS.

Do we though? Does anyone know this for certain?

That could be true or like my sister and her husband who caught it prior to being vaccinated they could just feel like they had the flu for a week or so.

 

[roubaixtuesday]

Do we though? Does anyone know this for certain?

Yes.

Here's the figures, from PHE, of effectiveness vs hospitalisation for delta.

You're far more likely to end up in hospital unvaxxed.

COVID-19 vaccine quarterly surveillance reports (September 2021 to November 2024)

Data on the real-world effectiveness and impact of the COVID-19 vaccines.

www.gov.uk

 

[hgblue]

The bold section is incorrect. Vaccinated people catch and spread COVID, yes, but at a much lower rate than unvaccinated people.

unvaccinated people are also disproportionately ending up in hospital and causing a huge, unnecessary strain on the NHS.

Excellent UK peer reviewed survey on this carried out between September 2020 and September 2021 which followed around 600 primary sources of infection and regularly swabbed all their primary contacts. It found only a slightly higher rate of transmission to those who were unvaccinated (38%) compared to those who were vaccinated (25%). Some of this data was gathered before Delta so the difference is likely to be even smaller now. Also, study after study has now found an equal viral load between the vaccinated and unvaccinated. Might explain why there are major outbreaks at the moment in highly vaccinated communities, for example Waterford in Ireland 99.7% vaccinated has one of the highest rates of new covid cases in the world 1,486 per 100,000. So very little scientific justification for the vilification of and discrimination against the unvaccinated, and these policies are causing significant distrust, unrest and division, which is why I'm strongly opposed to all mandates and coercive measures. Make the argument for vaccination by all means but don't divide us by setting one section of the community against another.

 

[daveiw01]

This is from a news source in Holland:

The chance that a fully vaccinated person with the coronavirus SARS-CoV-2 will be admitted to hospital is 17 times lower than for a non-vaccinated person. The chance of ICU admission for a fully vaccinated person is 33 times lower.

Personally I agree with the vaccine being mandatory for those who are able to have it.

..and if we learn, in the future, that the vaccine has unforseen long term complications and morbidities, how would you feel then, about forcing people to take the experimental vaccine?

Clearly I'm not comparing like for like, and it's an unfair comparison, but as an extreme, do you recall a drug named Thalidomide?

Forcing someone to take any treatment against their will, is a very very slippery slope.

 

[daveiw01]

Excellent UK peer reviewed survey on this carried out between September 2020 and September 2021 which followed around 600 primary sources of infection and regularly swabbed all their primary contacts. It found only a slightly higher rate of transmission to those who were unvaccinated (38%) compared to those who were vaccinated (25%). Some of this data was gathered before Delta so the difference is likely to be even smaller now. Also, study after study has now found an equal viral load between the vaccinated and unvaccinated. Might explain why there are major outbreaks at the moment in highly vaccinated communities, for example Waterford in Ireland 99.7% vaccinated has one of the highest rates of new covid cases in the world 1,486 per 100,000. So very little scientific justification for the vilification of and discrimination against the unvaccinated, and these policies are causing significant distrust, unrest and division, which is why I'm strongly opposed to all mandates and coercive measures. Make the argument for vaccination by all means but don't divide us by setting one section of the community against another.

Every time I read something like this, it makes me question the logic even more. A lot of what is going on does not make sense, by any metric.

I'm going to have my booster, but something about all this is very off.

 

[M18CTID]

Excellent UK peer reviewed survey on this carried out between September 2020 and September 2021 which followed around 600 primary sources of infection and regularly swabbed all their primary contacts. It found only a slightly higher rate of transmission to those who were unvaccinated (38%) compared to those who were vaccinated (25%). Some of this data was gathered before Delta so the difference is likely to be even smaller now. Also, study after study has now found an equal viral load between the vaccinated and unvaccinated. Might explain why there are major outbreaks at the moment in highly vaccinated communities, for example Waterford in Ireland 99.7% vaccinated has one of the highest rates of new covid cases in the world 1,486 per 100,000. So very little scientific justification for the vilification of and discrimination against the unvaccinated, and these policies are causing significant distrust, unrest and division, which is why I'm strongly opposed to all mandates and coercive measures. Make the argument for vaccination by all means but don't divide us by setting one section of the community against another.

I’d be astonished if 99.7% have been vaccinated in any town or city on the planet. For a start, under-12s aren’t being jabbed in Ireland as far as I know but even if they were there would be plenty of parents not getting their kids jabbed. Even if the figure is 99.7% of all adults, I’m calling bollocks on that too. Factor in those who can’t have it for medical reasons, the anti-vaxx mob who populate every town and city, and those who simply can’t be arsed, then are you sure it’s 99.7%? The UK has had a relatively high vaccine uptake amongst adults compared to a lot of other countries but even then, it’s around 90%. I would imagine Ireland will be similar but 99.7% in Waterford? Come off it ffs!

 

[PragueBlue]

Forcing someone to take any treatment against their will, is a very very slippery slope.

So is allowing the voluntary unvaccinated to fill up the hospital beds and take resources away from others. It's a difficult situation but in this particular case I'd be tempted to follow Austria's route.

 

[hgblue]

I’d be astonished if 99.7% have been vaccinated in any town or city on the planet. For a start, under-12s aren’t being jabbed in Ireland as far as I know but even if they were there would be plenty of parents not getting their kids jabbed. Even if the figure is 99.7% of all adults, I’m calling bollocks on that too. The UK has had a relatively high vaccine uptake amongst adults compared to a lot of other countries but even then, it’s around 90%. I would imagine will be similar but 99.7% in Waterford? Come off it ffs!

99.7% of the eligible population. I'll dig out the video if you'd like?

 

[hammocity]

..and if we learn, in the future, that the vaccine has unforseen long term complications and morbidities, how would you feel then, about forcing people to take the experimental vaccine?

Clearly I'm not comparing like for like, and it's an unfair comparison, but as an extreme, do you recall a drug named Thalidomide?

Forcing someone to take any treatment against their will, is a very very slippery slope.

Too many thick cunts on Facebook spreading shite, you can’t compare a drug that failed 60 years ago to todays science and research. Thalidomide is still used btw, very powerful drug that has its uses even in this day and age.

 

[Sir peace frog]

Just had my booster

 

[M18CTID]

99.7% of the eligible population. I'll dig out the video if you'd like?

Still sounds bollocks. Who made the video - a tin foil hat wearing Covid denier?

Edit: Just saw an article in the Irish Times that corroborates the 99.7% figure. There is a rider though - it’s according to those accounted for in the census. Still surprising though but I note the article is a month old and things have probably improved a lot since then

 

[Bluewonder]

So is allowing the voluntary unvaccinated to fill up the hospital beds and take resources away from others. It's a difficult situation but in this particular case I'd be tempted to follow Austria's route.

In an extreme scenario I don't think anyone could complain about prioritising the vaccinated over the unvaccinated when treating for Covid, should the situation necessitate.

However, have you read about any situations where this need has arisen?

 

[PragueBlue]

In an extreme scenario I don't think anyone could complain about prioritising the vaccinated over the unvaccinated when treating for Covid, should the situation necessitate.

However, have you read about any situations where this need has arisen?

I know of situations here where people haven't been able to be treated in hospital for serious illnesses due to high numbers of covid patients, though to be fair that was last Winter before the vaccination program got fully under way.

 

[bobbyowenquiff]

I'm like you I just don't agree with this bullying and apartheid system for those not wanting the jab and I know some on this thread will pile in and say fuck them but it doesn't sit easy with me. I've had all mine including the booster yesterday so I'm not anti vacc by any means. Having the jab doesn't stop me catching it or spreading it but will hopefully stop me ending up six feet under if I do. If that's the case why am I allowed to go to concerns, pubs, on holiday etcetera when I've just as much chance of catching and spreading it as somebody unjabbed who isn't? If it kills them for being unjabbed then that's their look out.

It's the same as bloody lockdowns, this has to stop now. People should have a choice. Feel unsafe? Stay indoors. We can't keep on imposing martial law on civilisation willy nilly. Anyone doubting it's martial law only needs to look at Holland where they are firing live rounds at their citizens. Really? In bloody Holland??? Austria banning sections of its population from actually living a life. What next; internment camps??? I don't like where all this appears to be heading.

I fundamentally agree with this. I have had all my jabs and will get a booster. I have also had Covid (thankfully a mild dose). I don't agree with those who don't want to have the vaccine but I respect their right to make that choice. If they decide not to be jabbed then they will inevitably face travel restrictions as a consequence. But I don't agree with what is happening in Germany and Austria. It is bullying and sowing division in communities. I got Covid after being jabbed and so the idea that only unvaccinated people can transmit it is just false.

 

[BlueAnorak]

The NHS problem at the moment is dealing with patients who haven't had other stuff sorted over the last two years due to Covid and it becomes semi-serious or serious and then folks have to be admitted.
Hence the ambulance shortages etc.
Hospitals may have had 35k Covid patients at the peak in January but there just isn't the room now leaving around 15k-18k beds free max now.

 

[BlueAnorak]

Yes.

Here's the figures, from PHE, of effectiveness vs hospitalisation for delta.

You're far more likely to end up in hospital unvaxxed.

COVID-19 vaccine quarterly surveillance reports (September 2021 to November 2024)

Data on the real-world effectiveness and impact of the COVID-19 vaccines.

www.gov.uk

View attachment 30184

17 times more likely to be hospitalised.
33 times more likely to need ICU treatment.

 

[bobbyowenquiff]

This depends on which set of statistics and from which country, there is a lot of misinformation on both sides, muddying the waters.
The whole thing has been handled extremely poorly, from any perspective, on that I'm sure we can agree?

I do think research has been done on how easy it is to transmit Covid (jabbed or unjabbed) and I think the jury is still out on the issue. However it does seem very clear that jabbed people who get Covid don't get as seriously ill as the unjabbed. So the argument about extra strain on the NHS from those who are unjabbed is probably valid. That said my family members who work in the NHS tell me the beds crisis is mostly down to shortage of beds and staff and Covid is essentially being used as a smokescreen for a broader NHS crisis.
Covid has been a very divisive issue but I think the truth, as is always the case, seems to lie somewhere in the middle of the debate.