Religion

vmsuhail said:
I knew you would come up with a list, and hence why I asked in my previous post to bring one at a time and not overload me. Anyways, I'll provide my comments on each of them.

Quran 2:178 – Why is Allah dividing humans in different categories? Is Allah not supposed to be equal?
Answer: Well the reason is when it comes to legal retribution for murder, the punishment is equal whether it's a free man, women or a slave. Some things have to be explicitly stated when there exists a hierarchy in the society.

Sahih Muslim 1602, book 22, hadith 152, 10:3901 Mohammed purchased slaves, not exactly emancipation now is it? In fact, he traded 2 black slaves for 1 arab slave
Answer: Muhammad(saw) was not the King of Arabia. He was only a leader of the Muslims. His rules apply only to his people. This event refers to a slave who came to the prophet and accepted Islam during the migration. The Prophet accepted him, but didn't know that he was a slave. As you probably know, the migration happened because the early Muslims were persecuted. When the master came and demanded him to be returned, what do you think the Prophet could have done ? Send him back to the oppressing master ? So, he had to trade 2 black slaves owned by Muslims as that was the law among the Arab pagans.

Sahih Bukari 9:89:296 a Slave owner wanted to free a slave, but Mohammed instead decided to sell him for 800 dirhams
Answer: The reason is also mentioned there right ? The person didn't own any property other than that slave and he was on his deathbed. So the prophet sold him and sent the money back to him to leave something for his children.

Same in Sahih Muslim 15:4112
Answer: It's a similar case of another person who had no property and decided to free all his 6 slaves at the time of his death. The prophet asked him to free 2 and keep the other 4. These are done on a case-by-case basis based on the situation. But, did you notice that the followers who had nothing left were freeing all their slaves ? That attitude change is the result of the Qur'an.

Sahih Bukhari, slave owner frees a slave, but Mohammed said they would have gotten more reward if they had given her to one of her maternal uncles.
Answer: Again a specific case of asking to gift her slave (not sell) to maternal uncle. Maybe her uncles were in poverty and badly needed their service.

Quran 33:50 – Sex with slaves
Yes. This was the norm for 2500 years and Qur'an approved sexual relationships between master and slave as not adulterous. Remember, only the master is allowed to have sex and nobody else. Qur'an also forbids forcing slaves to prostitution in verse 24:33. Perhaps this was allowed so that the sexual needs of the slave is also met. But wait, the Law doesn't end here. Islamic law also stipulates that when a child is born out of this relationship, the slave moves to the status of "umm-al-walad" (mother of a child) who became automatically free on her master's death. The child is considered free and considered legitimate children of their father, including full rights of name and inheritance. So even this provision is meant to end slavery.

Quran 4:24 – shows that the companions of Mohammad were reluctant to have sex with married slaves until Muhammed approved it in the Quran and suggested to not pull out either.
Answer: Learn the full story. This is regarding the battle of Awtas, where the enemy warriors fled to the mountains leaving behind their women and children. The Muslims waited for their delegation to come and rasom them, but didn't. The companions of Muhammad(saw) were reluctant to take them as slaves because they knew their husbands were alive. The verse addressed this case and approved MARRYING them. Remember marriage needs approval of the women. The choice was offered to the women, and they choose to be returned to their families and the Muslims returned every single one of them.

23:5-6, 70:27-30 – more sex with slaves, or let’s call it what it is (rape).
Answer: Ermm, not rape. Just allowance of sex with slaves as I explained earlier.

Quran 66:4 – Mohammed raped his Egyptian slave Maria de Coptic.
Answer: Nonsense. Maria(ra) was an Egyptian slave gifted to the Prophet by the then ruler of Egypt. After she became a concubine of the prophet, she embraced Islam. The prophet had a child in this relationship who died in his infancy. This is a legitimate relationship pre-Islam and within Islam. The other wives have nothing to complain, and the report of their displeasure doesn't come from any authentic source. The actual story behind this verse 66:4 is reported by his wife Aisha(ra) herself in Sahih Bukhari, it's a totally different incident.

Sahih Bukhari – “none of you should flog his wife as he flogs a slave and then have sexual intercourse with her”.
Anwer: Hmm...yeah you can't flog your wife like flogging a slave (practice of pre-Islam). Muhammad(saw) also forbid beating a slave.

Zad al-Ma’ad says the names of at least 40 slaves owned by Mohammed…
Answer: They were not all his slaves at the same time. You are missing the point that Muslims purchased slaves who accepted Islam from their non-Muslim owners and then later set them free. Then there are also prisoners of war. For example, in that list of 28 men, you will find the name Zayd Ibn Haritha, whom the prophet purchased, then freed him and adopted as his son. How many slaves did he have when he died ? Probably Zero.

If some Abbasid King or ISIS ill-treated the slaves, it is against the scriptures. You keep going on about rape. Look around the countries in the world today, and it's the Islamic countries that give the harshest punishment for rape, and you say you can rape a slave, when both the Qur'an and prophetic teachings emphasize on their good treatment. Sassanid Empire may have had slavery laws, but it didn't impact the Arabian society. They still had slavery, so entrenched that the concept of a servant was absent. If you want someone to do some work, you needed to find a slave.

Muhammad(saw) has addressed the issue of slavery as well as he could.
Click to expand...
So really all you have said is that Islam regulates for raping women. That Mohammed waged war with. Africa did not persecute Mohammed. He cared little and enslaved Africans and kept its daughters and wife’s as sexual slaves.

islam never abolished slavery. The best it can do is regulate for how you can have sex with someone you have taken the freedom from. Which means rape. You can write sex as many times as you like, because it sounds cute. But it is rape.

you have furthermore slave rebellions, meaning people condemned Islam during the time of Mohammed. So you can’t even say it was a war period and we had different standards, especially when it is the Muslims attacking other countries. The Islamic countries did not legally (international law) abolished Islam until the 1960s and that was due to the wester Christian countries forcing them.

yet, in countries where international law and governance is not as strong as the west. You see that the difference between a moderate Muslim and extreme Muslim becomes very slim.

the Muslims killing and selling my tribe in mali are not isis. They are just so called moderate Muslims following what Mohammed did himself. So how is the best example for mankind? Did Jesus not live in a similar state of affairs. He never waged war, killed all the men in the family and took the wives, daughters and mothers for sexual slave. Only someone evil can do that. Not sure why you would consider it as best example for mankind, but that’s someone you will have to reconcile with, not me.

what you are doing is this. Hitler did some good things for the Germans and wrote some nice things idealistically. Yes, he did some evil things, but let’s not focus on that and just talk about the good stuff he did for the Germans.

That can’t work can it?
 
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Sarutaka said:
So really all you have said is that Islam regulates for raping women. That Mohammed waged war with. Africa did not persecute Mohammed. He cared little and enslaved Africans and kept its daughters and wife’s as sexual slaves.

islam never abolished slavery. The best it can do is regulate for how you can have sex with someone you have taken the freedom from. Which means rape. You can write sex as many times as you like, because it sounds cute. But it is rape.

you have furthermore slave rebellions, meaning people condemned Islam during the time of Mohammed. So you can’t even say it was a war period and we had different standards, especially when it is the Muslims attacking other countries. The Islamic countries did not legally (international law) abolished Islam until the 1960s and that was due to the wester Christian countries forcing them.

yet, in countries where international law and governance is not as strong as the west. You see that the difference between a moderate Muslim and extreme Muslim becomes very slim.

the Muslims killing and selling my tribe in mali are not isis. They are just so called moderate Muslims following what Mohammed did himself. So how is the best example for mankind? Did Jesus not live in a similar state of affairs. He never waged war, killed all the men in the family and took the wives, daughters and mothers for sexual slave. Only someone evil can do that. Not sure why you would consider it as best example for mankind, but that’s someone you will have to reconcile with, not me.

what you are doing is this. Hitler did some good things for the Germans and wrote some nice things idealistically. Yes, he did some evil things, but let’s not focus on that and just talk about the good stuff he did for the Germans.

That can’t work can it?
Click to expand...

If that is all what you understood from my post, then I don't think there is much I can do, but I'll try one last time. Muhammad(saw) never sent any armies to Africa or enslaved any of them. So when did this fictional war happen ? In fact, it was the Christian Abyssinian king who gave refuge to the early Muslims who faced persecution in Arabia. Also, the Egyptian ruler send him gifts including 2 slaves. So how come they were in good terms with Muhammad(saw) ?
Do you know who was the first African to embrace Islam ? His name is Bilal ibn Rabah, a slave who was freed by the companion of Muhammad(saw). Because of his great voice, Muhammad(saw) chose him as the first Islamic caller to prayer. Later, he was also appointed minister to the state treasury. So much for caring little about Africans eh ?

You can cry rape as much as you want, I've no time for the ISIS or the so called moderate(lol) Mali Muslims interpretation. The Islamic law regarding rape as described by the founder of one of the Sunni schools.
Imam Malik (mid 8th century) said: "In our view man who rapes a woman, virgin or non-virgin, if she is free, he must pay the dower of the like of her. If she is a slave, he must pay what he has diminished of her worth. The hadd-punishment in such cases is applied to the rapist, and there is no punishment applied to the raped woman.” (Muwatta, Book 36, Chapter 16, Narration 14)

Having sex with slaves pre-dates Muhammad(saw) by 2500 years. Abraham(as) had a concubine named Hagar(ra). In the 12 tribes of Israel, 4 of them comes from the slaves of Jacob's(as) wives. Going forward, the Mosaic law allowed taking slaves from other nations and having sex with them. David(as) and Solomon(as) had numerous concubines. Islamic law makes it clear that the children from this relationship didn't became slaves, thus restricting this institution from continuing to the next generation.

There was no slave rebellion against Muhammad(saw). What's next ? The Americans rebelled against Muhammad(saw) ? Is it an Opposite Day in Mali today ? Muslims attacking others ? Yeah, that's why Muhammad(saw) and his followers had to leave all their property and migrate 700 km from Mecca to Medina. That's why they had to go as emigrants to Abyssinia. Let's pretend the other side were saints huh ?

It's strange that you bring up Jesus(as) for comparison. First, he is also a prophet in Islam, so as a Muslim I've no issues in following him. Secondly, Jesus(as) didn't speak a word against slavery. So let me ask a question in your style. Are you more moral than Jesus(as), Paul and the apostles ? Not only them, are you more moral than Aristotle, Plato and all the other greats who didn't speak against slavery ?
Thirdly, Jesus(as) didn't wage war since he didn't have any authority to do so, neither he had enough followers to carry out the task. Once Jesus(as) returns, he will wage wars against the nations with the support of heavenly armies (read Bible Revelations chapter 19 for details). Also, Jesus(as) said his father is the god of the Jews. Do I need to say how many wars are there in the Old Testament ?
John 8:54 Jesus replied, “If I glorify myself, my glory means nothing. My Father, whom you claim as your God, is the one who glorifies me."

Muslims say Muhammad(saw) is an example for mankind, Christians say Jesus(as) is, Hindus say the incarnation Lord Ram is "maryada purushottam". The believers have their own perspective. Even in this subject of slavery, I consider Muhammad(saw) to be a reformist, you see a rapist. Likewise for every other thing, we have a view that is different to yours. Hitler is not held in any high regard today, not even in Germany, unlike the names I mentioned above. There is not a second that passes by without thousands of Muslims sending praises and salutations to Muhammad(saw), Abraham(as) and their progeny in their daily prayers.
 
vmsuhail said:
If that is all what you understood from my post, then I don't think there is much I can do, but I'll try one last time. Muhammad(saw) never sent any armies to Africa or enslaved any of them. So when did this fictional war happen ? In fact, it was the Christian Abyssinian king who gave refuge to the early Muslims who faced persecution in Arabia. Also, the Egyptian ruler send him gifts including 2 slaves. So how come they were in good terms with Muhammad(saw) ?
Do you know who was the first African to embrace Islam ? His name is Bilal ibn Rabah, a slave who was freed by the companion of Muhammad(saw). Because of his great voice, Muhammad(saw) chose him as the first Islamic caller to prayer. Later, he was also appointed minister to the state treasury. So much for caring little about Africans eh ?

You can cry rape as much as you want, I've no time for the ISIS or the so called moderate(lol) Mali Muslims interpretation. The Islamic law regarding rape as described by the founder of one of the Sunni schools.
Imam Malik (mid 8th century) said: "In our view man who rapes a woman, virgin or non-virgin, if she is free, he must pay the dower of the like of her. If she is a slave, he must pay what he has diminished of her worth. The hadd-punishment in such cases is applied to the rapist, and there is no punishment applied to the raped woman.” (Muwatta, Book 36, Chapter 16, Narration 14)

Having sex with slaves pre-dates Muhammad(saw) by 2500 years. Abraham(as) had a concubine named Hagar(ra). In the 12 tribes of Israel, 4 of them comes from the slaves of Jacob's(as) wives. Going forward, the Mosaic law allowed taking slaves from other nations and having sex with them. David(as) and Solomon(as) had numerous concubines. Islamic law makes it clear that the children from this relationship didn't became slaves, thus restricting this institution from continuing to the next generation.

There was no slave rebellion against Muhammad(saw). What's next ? The Americans rebelled against Muhammad(saw) ? Is it an Opposite Day in Mali today ? Muslims attacking others ? Yeah, that's why Muhammad(saw) and his followers had to leave all their property and migrate 700 km from Mecca to Medina. That's why they had to go as emigrants to Abyssinia. Let's pretend the other side were saints huh ?

It's strange that you bring up Jesus(as) for comparison. First, he is also a prophet in Islam, so as a Muslim I've no issues in following him. Secondly, Jesus(as) didn't speak a word against slavery. So let me ask a question in your style. Are you more moral than Jesus(as), Paul and the apostles ? Not only them, are you more moral than Aristotle, Plato and all the other greats who didn't speak against slavery ?
Thirdly, Jesus(as) didn't wage war since he didn't have any authority to do so, neither he had enough followers to carry out the task. Once Jesus(as) returns, he will wage wars against the nations with the support of heavenly armies (read Bible Revelations chapter 19 for details). Also, Jesus(as) said his father is the god of the Jews. Do I need to say how many wars are there in the Old Testament ?
John 8:54 Jesus replied, “If I glorify myself, my glory means nothing. My Father, whom you claim as your God, is the one who glorifies me."

Muslims say Muhammad(saw) is an example for mankind, Christians say Jesus(as) is, Hindus say the incarnation Lord Ram is "maryada purushottam". The believers have their own perspective. Even in this subject of slavery, I consider Muhammad(saw) to be a reformist, you see a rapist. Likewise for every other thing, we have a view that is different to yours. Hitler is not held in any high regard today, not even in Germany, unlike the names I mentioned above. There is not a second that passes by without thousands of Muslims sending praises and salutations to Muhammad(saw), Abraham(as) and their progeny in their daily prayers.
Click to expand...
The Arab slave trade in Africa was happening during Mohammed’s time. Mohammed clearly sold and had slaves. So clearly he was a slave trader. Not sure there is much more to say, if you can’t understand the issue with that, then yes, no point in having this debate. I am not the one to turn a blind eye on such evil morals and a slippery road from being so called moderate and extreme Muslim. It’s no difference from trying to convince a neo nazi that hitler is evil.
 
From a book called Prayers of the Cosmos by Neil Douglas Klotz. In this, he goes back to the Aramaic and tries to look at what the prayers would be like in the context of Middle Eastern wisdom teachings. Given that it involves God, it will not be if interest to many here, but perhaps it gives a different view. And it might hint at sound and breath being valuable, not just an intellectual understanding.

“Abwoon d’bwashmaya  (KJV version: Our Father which art in heaven)”

“The prayer begins with an expression of the divine creation and the blessing that emanates from all parenting. The ancient Middle Eastern root ab refers to all fruit, all germination proceeding from the source of Unity. This root came to be used in the Aramaic word for personal father—abba—but still echoes its original ungendered root in sound-meaning. While abwoon is a derivative of this word for personal father, its original roots do not specify a gender and could be translated “divine parent.” These roots reveal many levels of meaning. bwn shows the ray or emanation of that father/ motherhood proceeding from potential to actual, here and now. In Aramaic, the character for b may also be pronounced w or include shades of both. An Aramaic scholar, the Reverend Mar Aprem (1981), notes that the same root (ab) may stand for personal father or spiritual father, depending on whether the w (for personal) or the b (for spiritual) is emphasized. No doubt, Jesus meant there to be an echo of both, as Aramaic is rich in this sublime wordplay. Further, according to the mystical science of sounds and letters, common to both Aramaic and Hebrew, the word abwoon points beyond our changing concepts of “male” and “female” to a cosmic birthing process.

At this level of interpretation, abwoon may be said to have four parts to its sound-meaning: A: the Absolute, the Only Being, the pure Oneness and Unity, source of all power and stability (echoing to the ancient sacred sound AL and the Aramaic word for God, Aloha, literally, “the Oneness”). bw: a birthing, a creation, a flow of blessing, as if from the “interior” of this Oneness to us. oo: the breath or spirit that carries this flow, echoing the sound of breathing and including all forces we now call magnetism, wind, electricity, and more. This sound is linked to the Aramaic phrase rukha d’qoodshaa whiih waa sater rranslated aa “Holy Spirit.” n: the vibration of this creative breath from Oneness as it touches and interpenetrates form. There must be a substance that this force touches, moves, and changes. This sound echoes the earth, and the body here vibrates as we intone the whole name slowly: Ah-bw-oo-n. The rest of the phrase completes the motion of divine creation.

In d’brwashmaya, the central root is found in the middle: shm. From this root comes the word shem, which may mean light, sound, vibration, name, or word. The root shm indicates that which “rises and shines in space,” the entire sphere of a being. In this sense, one’s name included one’s sound, vibration, or atmosphere, and names were carefully given and received. Here the “sign” or “name” that renders Abwoon knowable is the entire universe. The ending-aya shows that this shining includes every center of activity, every place we see, as well as the potential abilities of all things. In effect, shmaya says that the vibration or word by which one can recognize the Oneness-God’s name—is the universe. This was the Aramaic conception of “heaven.” This word is central to many of the sayings of Jesus and usually misunderstood. In Greek and later in English, “heaven” became a metaphysical concept out of touch with the processes of creation. It is difficult for the Western mind to comprehend how one word can have such seemingly different meanings. Yet this was the world view of the native Middle Eastern mystic.”

— Prayers of the Cosmos: Reflections on the Original Meaning of Jesus' Words by Neil Douglas-Klotz
 
arfurclue said:
From a book called Prayers of the Cosmos by Neil Douglas Klotz. In this, he goes back to the Aramaic and tries to look at what the prayers would be like in the context of Middle Eastern wisdom teachings. Given that it involves God, it will not be if interest to many here, but perhaps it gives a different view. And it might hint at sound and breath being valuable, not just an intellectual understanding.

“Abwoon d’bwashmaya  (KJV version: Our Father which art in heaven)”

“The prayer begins with an expression of the divine creation and the blessing that emanates from all parenting. The ancient Middle Eastern root ab refers to all fruit, all germination proceeding from the source of Unity. This root came to be used in the Aramaic word for personal father—abba—but still echoes its original ungendered root in sound-meaning. While abwoon is a derivative of this word for personal father, its original roots do not specify a gender and could be translated “divine parent.” These roots reveal many levels of meaning. bwn shows the ray or emanation of that father/ motherhood proceeding from potential to actual, here and now. In Aramaic, the character for b may also be pronounced w or include shades of both. An Aramaic scholar, the Reverend Mar Aprem (1981), notes that the same root (ab) may stand for personal father or spiritual father, depending on whether the w (for personal) or the b (for spiritual) is emphasized. No doubt, Jesus meant there to be an echo of both, as Aramaic is rich in this sublime wordplay. Further, according to the mystical science of sounds and letters, common to both Aramaic and Hebrew, the word abwoon points beyond our changing concepts of “male” and “female” to a cosmic birthing process.

At this level of interpretation, abwoon may be said to have four parts to its sound-meaning: A: the Absolute, the Only Being, the pure Oneness and Unity, source of all power and stability (echoing to the ancient sacred sound AL and the Aramaic word for God, Aloha, literally, “the Oneness”). bw: a birthing, a creation, a flow of blessing, as if from the “interior” of this Oneness to us. oo: the breath or spirit that carries this flow, echoing the sound of breathing and including all forces we now call magnetism, wind, electricity, and more. This sound is linked to the Aramaic phrase rukha d’qoodshaa whiih waa sater rranslated aa “Holy Spirit.” n: the vibration of this creative breath from Oneness as it touches and interpenetrates form. There must be a substance that this force touches, moves, and changes. This sound echoes the earth, and the body here vibrates as we intone the whole name slowly: Ah-bw-oo-n. The rest of the phrase completes the motion of divine creation.

In d’brwashmaya, the central root is found in the middle: shm. From this root comes the word shem, which may mean light, sound, vibration, name, or word. The root shm indicates that which “rises and shines in space,” the entire sphere of a being. In this sense, one’s name included one’s sound, vibration, or atmosphere, and names were carefully given and received. Here the “sign” or “name” that renders Abwoon knowable is the entire universe. The ending-aya shows that this shining includes every center of activity, every place we see, as well as the potential abilities of all things. In effect, shmaya says that the vibration or word by which one can recognize the Oneness-God’s name—is the universe. This was the Aramaic conception of “heaven.” This word is central to many of the sayings of Jesus and usually misunderstood. In Greek and later in English, “heaven” became a metaphysical concept out of touch with the processes of creation. It is difficult for the Western mind to comprehend how one word can have such seemingly different meanings. Yet this was the world view of the native Middle Eastern mystic.”

— Prayers of the Cosmos: Reflections on the Original Meaning of Jesus' Words by Neil Douglas-Klotz
Click to expand...
Hmmm!
Interesting but I think I prefer Dave Allen.
 
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