The Scottish Politics thread

[Saddleworth2]

And I say this as a person who agrees that the union is now defunct, as a proud Englishman (i'm allowed to say that, right?) its clear that both nations now have a sense of independent identity and that the term "British" is now archaic.

So we agree. What on earth are we arguing for. Let’s wish each other well and move on.

 

[Saddleworth2]

All very well and good and I do agree on what they should have done but the SNP were very strong and the biggest party in Scotland before Brexit and they’d still be there if Brexit hadn’t happened. Theyll still be there if the Tories are voted out too.

But support For the SNP in Scotland should not be read as support for Nationalism. Many people who vote for the SNP voted no at the last referendum.

 

[Metal Biker]

Don't think that happens, not much anyway. You do realise if Scotland votes to leave the UK it will be because a lot of non Scots living in Scotland have also voted for it. Including a fair few English people. It isn't just Scot against English or anyone else for that matter. Just people living in Scotland that believe they would be better off under an independant government, simple as that.

And what are the reasons why they think that?


There ya go!

 

[Octavian]

But support For the SNP in Scotland should not be read as support for Nationalism. Many people who vote for the SNP voted no at the last referendum.

True but they’re still voting for a nationalist party and I would guess more who vote for them support nationalism than don’t

 

[Metal Biker]

So we agree. What on earth are we arguing for. Let’s wish each other well and move on.

Because i'm seeing a lot of blame thrown at England's door for the reasons why Scotland and Scottish people feel they must make this decision, that "England" is the one dictating the rest of the UK. "England" votes for Tories, "England" voted to leave the EU and dragged the UK with it (convieniently ignoring the 1m Scots who also voted that way, or Wales) "England" is full of racists and fascists and all sorts of BS i've seen come out of Scots Nats to try and justify why they need to be independent from us.

Yeah, I agree we should separate, i'm just sick of some Scots Nats blaming England for Scotland's woes. You're the one arguing that there aren't people in Scotland that are like that, then getting pissy when others point out to you that there ARE, and it is THEY who we in England are fed up with.

 

[blueparrot]

And what are the reasons wh they think that?


There ya go!

Closer or full EU membership. A more centre left government that represents Scottish opinion. Reasons that have been explained many times. The reason Scotland voted No last time was doubts over currency and EU membership, so if you are asking what would possibly swing it now, simply EU and Brexit.

 

[Metal Biker]

Closer or full EU membership. A more centre left government that represents Scottish opinion. Reasons that have been explained many times. The reason Scotland voted No last time was doubts over currency and EU membership, so if you are asking what would possibly swing it now, simply EU and Brexit.

1m Scots voted to leave the EU, along with 16.1m others in the union and we voted as ONE nation. Do their voices not count towards what Scotland wants?

 

[Saddleworth2]

Because i'm seeing a lot of blame thrown at England's door for the reasons why Scotland and Scottish people feel they must make this decision, that "England" is the one dictating the rest of the UK. "England" votes for Tories, "England" voted to leave the EU and dragged the UK with it (convieniently ignoring the 1m Scots who also voted that way, or Wales) "England" is full of racists and fascists and all sorts of BS i've seen come out of Scots Nats to try and justify why they need to be independent from us.

Yeah, I agree we should separate, i'm just sick of some Scots Nats blaming England for Scotland's woes. You're the one arguing that there aren't people in Scotland that are like that, then getting pissy when others point out to you that there ARE, and it is THEY who we in England are fed up with.

Fair enough. I haven‘t called the English anything like racist or fascist. If you say others have then they have. I have argued that the Scots don‘t hate the English and in general they don’t. Like any nation on gods earth we have a small section of fruit cases but we are no different to any other country there. I repeat, what many of us detest is being dictated to by a party that doesn’t enjoy strong support in Scotland and in addition is lead by a government that is dishonest, venal and crooked.

Denying that English voting dictates the political direction of the U.K. isn’t particularly logical though. It does. Population dictates that which is fine when all the four nations politics are relatively well aligned but problematic when they aren’t.

 

[blueparrot]

1m Scots voted to leave the EU, along with 16.1m others in the union and we voted as ONE nation. Do their voices not count?

They will count in any independence vote, not sure past votes are taken into account, unless you think there shouldn't be a vote because a section of people voted a certain way in a different vote years ago.

 

[Metal Biker]

Fair enough. I haven‘t called the English anything like racist or fascist. If you say others have then they have. I have argued that the Scots don‘t hate the English and in general they don’t. Like any nation on gods earth we have a small section of fruit cases but we are no different to any other country there. I repeat, what many of us detest is being dictated to by a party that doesn’t enjoy strong support in Scotland and in addition is lead by a government that is dishonest, venal and crooked.

Denying that English voting dictates the political direction of the U.K. isn’t particularly logical though. It does. Population dictates that which is fine when all the four nations politics are relatively well aligned but problematic when they aren’t.

Completely agree, which is why when I refer to "Scots" I really mean those scots nats that do have those sentiments.


Again I agree with the frustration, which is why the fall of Labour has been so galling. They made themselves unelectable in both England and Scotland and it can't all be laid at Starmer's doo; Scotland wasn't exactly voting for Corbyn either, were they. But rather than work together to create a credible alternative, Scotland went with SNP. C'est la vie.

England can't be blamed for having a lot of people living here, We also vote in accordance to OUR local issues too. That's not us "dictating".

 

[Metal Biker]

They will count in any independence vote, not sure past votes are taken into account, unless you think there shouldn't be a vote because a section of people voted a certain way in a different vote years ago.

No, i'm asking YOU why did many in Scotland think "Scotland is being taken out of the EU against it's will", when we all didn't vote as separate nations, but ONE nation, and 1m Scots agreed with the decision. Do 1m Scots opinions not count towards Scotland?

 

[blueparrot]

No, i'm asking YOU why did many in Scotland think "Scotland is being taken out of the EU against it's will", when we all didn't vote as separate nations, but ONE nation, and 1m Scots agreed with the decision.

I don't speak for them, if you are asking me, I believe the referendum should have taken into account that it's a union of 4 nations and unless the majority of nations agreed then we should have stayed in . Whether you or anyone else agree isn't my or your problem. It also has no relevance to how people will vote going forward. It's a hypothetical question.

 

[Citizen of Legoland]

I don't speak for them, if you are asking me, I believe the referendum should have taken into account that it's a union of 4 nations and unless the majority of nations agreed then we should have stayed in . Whether you or anyone else agree isn't my or your problem. It also has no relevance to how people will vote going forward. It's a hypothetical question.

That was never really going to happen though as the four countries are around 55M, 5M, 3M & 2M populations so that would have meant the decision of 63M could have been overuled by a tiny majority in a 2M country. You'd be inadvertently adding additional weight to the value of the votes in those countries which would be undemocratic.

 

[Metal Biker]

I don't speak for them, if you are asking me, I believe the referendum should have taken into account that it's a union of 4 nations and unless the majority of nations agreed then we should have stayed in . Whether you or anyone else agree isn't my or your problem. It also has no relevance to how people will vote going forward. It's a hypothetical question.

Except the UK isn't a union of 4 nations, but regions. UK is the country. Basically you're avoiding the hypocrisy that there are those who don't see Scotland as part of the union but it is they who get to dictate to other Scots the direction Scotland should be heading in. How is that any different to the attitudes of Scots nats towards England and Westminster?

 

[blueparrot]

Except the UK isn't a union of 4 nations, but regions. UK is the country. Basically you're avoiding the hypocrisy that there are those who don't see Scotland as part of the union but it is they who get to dictate to other Scots the direction Scotland should be heading in. How is that any different to the attitudes of Scots nats towards England and Westminster?

Now that's getting ridiculous. Off down a twisty rabbit hole I'm not going.

 

[Saddleworth2]

That was never really going to happen though as the four countries are around 55M, 5M, 3M & 2M populations so that would have meant the decision of 63M could have been overuled by a tiny majority in a 2M country. You'd be inadvertently adding additional weight to the value of the votes in those countries which would be undemocratic.

And if that nation of 5m feels strongly enough about the result….what options….either suck it up or get out of the Union that imposed that decision.
that’s fundamental to the next referendum. Who knows what the outcome will be.

 

[Metal Biker]

Now that's getting ridiculous. Off down a twisty rabbit hole I'm not going.

Because you don't like it when reality slaps you in the face? Face it, you are dictating to those Scots who DON'T want to leave the union what they should and should not want. I bet the realisation for you came when you were probably going to say "majority vote rules" what you mean like in the EU referendum!?!

Leave by all accounts, but don't make out your reasonings are any different to those you're employing yourselves to justify independence. Said it before and i'll say it again; Indyref and EUref are near identical to one another, aside from the outcome.

 

[blueparrot]

That was never really going to happen though as the four countries are around 55M, 5M, 3M & 2M populations so that would have meant the decision of 63M could have been overuled by a tiny majority in a 2M country. You'd be inadvertently adding additional weight to the value of the votes in those countries which would be undemocratic.

I agree it wasn't going to happen. It is however how the EU works where smaller countries are given a veto. For me though the UK should have become a federal state many years ago, it would solve a lot of problems. With each state getting an equal or weighted vote on National issues. Still thats all theoretical stuff. I was asked what would be the reason Scotland would vote Yes. In my opinion the deciding factor would be the EU and Brexit, not some dislike of England and the English. No more than that. Revisiting the EU referendum breakdown doesn't help that conversation.

 

[Citizen of Legoland]

And if that nation of 5m feels strongly enough about the result….what options….either suck it up or get out of the Union that imposed that decision.
that’s fundamental to the next referendum. Who knows what the outcome will be.

I was talking about some of the nations being allowed to overrule the others when there is such a disparity in voter numbers. I don't disagree that there should have been a firmer rule on how to handle the result. But with Brexit we're talking solely about how the nation trades around the world and the associated issues around that, the countries of the UK are linked more than just that surely?

 

[Saddleworth2]

But with Brexit we're talking solely about how the nation trades around the world

Trade?
But, but, what about sovereignty and having control of our borders and not being governed by unelected europeans and queues of dangerous Turkish folk wanting to take our jobs and fish, for god sake man think of the fish?
;-)