Russian invasion of Ukraine

hammocity said:
If Ukraine agrees not to join Nato the whole situation almost goes away, surely that’s the sensible thing to do to avoid a very serious threat to mankind.
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Then Russia invades a drastically reduced militarily capable Donbas anyway and when NATO and Europe decides to step in to help Ukraine defend their borders, Russia claims that they are the ones being attacked by NATO unprovoked, which technically would be the case.

Yeah, no dice. Russia needs to back down; THAT is the most sensible thing to do to avoid a very serious threat to Ukrainian sovereignty, European stability and mankind.
 
hammocity said:
If Ukraine agrees not to join Nato the whole situation almost goes away, surely that’s the sensible thing to do to avoid a very serious threat to mankind.
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Russia have said today that if Ukraine withdraw their ambition to join NATO (which Ukraine spoke about doing yesterday) it will go a long way to resolving their concerns. Looks like we might have the makings of a diplomatic solution.
 
bluesteel said:
Don't try to change my hypothetical situation. The fact is, if you believe RTO is the aggressor in my hypothetical situation (they are), they how can you think NATO aren't the aggressor now in real life?

America would behave the same as Russia in my hypothetical situation, they'd insist Mexico doesn't join the hypothetical RTO and build up troops on the border and invade if they had to, to give a buffer between US soil and Guatemala.

Then there would be numpties saying what if the US invade Mexico? They could then walk straight into Guatemala like the Spanish did with their expansionist militaristic government.
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Fun fact. CSTO countries, bristling with weapons, border the Ukraine, yet Ukraine is not permitted to join NATO because the CSTO countries led by Russis will start ‘fearing for their security’. Note how no fucker in CSTO seems bothered about Ukraine fearing for theirs.

Instead of dealing in fanciful hypotheticals involving made up entities, how about you address the reality of Russian aggression and imperialism?
 
metalblue said:
Russia have said today that if Ukraine withdraw their ambition to join NATO (which Ukraine spoke about doing yesterday) it will go a long way to resolving their concerns. Looks like we might have the makings of a diplomatic solution.
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Once they get that concession they will then tell Ukraine that they cannot build the naval base that they are planning.
 
metalblue said:
Russia have said today that if Ukraine withdraw their ambition to join NATO (which Ukraine spoke about doing yesterday) it will go a long way to resolving their concerns. Looks like we might have the makings of a diplomatic solution.
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Ukraine isn’t getting into NATO anytime soon anyway. The Russians won’t go away entirely, but if true, it does buy time and space to de-escalate the current situation which is to be welcomed.
 
west didsblue said:
It will probably end up with Russia annexing the separatist held areas in the Donbas (the pink bits below) without anything more than a bit of a skirmish.

Map_of_the_war_in_Donbass.svg
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Absolutely, and this more or less fits with the invasion to be described as a 'limited incursion' which Biden has already with very carefully chosen words given a virtual green light to.
 
Mëtal Bikër said:
Russia would never agree to pay for a missile defence system and will never accept Ukraine joining NATO. And Crimea isn't theirs to "give back", they've annexed it illegally.
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According to Wikipedia Crimea by ethnicity is 65.3% Russian and 15.10% Ukrainian.
In addition it appears to have been part of the Byzantine then Ottoman then pre communist Russian empire.
Now I know that Wikipedia is not the font of all knowledge but historically speaking it seems Crimea was never part of Ukraine.
 
robbieh said:
According to Wikipedia Crimea by ethnicity is 65.3% Russian and 15.10% Ukrainian.
In addition it appears to have been part of the Byzantine then Ottoman then pre communist Russian empire.
Now I know that Wikipedia is not the font of all knowledge but historically speaking it seems Crimea was never part of Ukraine.
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It certainly isn't part of Russia and it was part of Ukrainian territory before its annexation.
 
1994, Budapest (copied from wikipedia):

According to the memorandum, Russia, the US and the UK confirmed their recognition of Belarus, Kazakhstan and Ukraine becoming parties to the Treaty on the Non-Proliferation of Nuclear Weapons and effectively abandoning their nuclear arsenal to Russia and that they would:
  1. Respect Belarusian, Kazakh and Ukrainian independence and sovereignty in the existing borders.[16]
  2. Refrain from the threat or the use of force against Belarus, Kazakhstan and Ukraine.
  3. Refrain from using economic pressure on Belarus, Kazakhstan and Ukraine to influence their politics.
  4. Seek immediate Security Council action to provide assistance to Belarus, Kazakhstan and Ukraine if they "should become a victim of an act of aggression or an object of a threat of aggression in which nuclear weapons are used".
  5. Refrain from the use of nuclear arms against Belarus, Kazakhstan and Ukraine.
  6. Consult with one another if questions arise regarding those commitment

With reference to point 1 especially, and points 2 and 3 in reasonable likelihood, remind me again why Ukraine should trust Russia to adhere to their own agreements.
 
MillionMilesAway said:
1994, Budapest (copied from wikipedia):

According to the memorandum, Russia, the US and the UK confirmed their recognition of Belarus, Kazakhstan and Ukraine becoming parties to the Treaty on the Non-Proliferation of Nuclear Weapons and effectively abandoning their nuclear arsenal to Russia and that they would:
  1. Respect Belarusian, Kazakh and Ukrainian independence and sovereignty in the existing borders.[16]
  2. Refrain from the threat or the use of force against Belarus, Kazakhstan and Ukraine.
  3. Refrain from using economic pressure on Belarus, Kazakhstan and Ukraine to influence their politics.
  4. Seek immediate Security Council action to provide assistance to Belarus, Kazakhstan and Ukraine if they "should become a victim of an act of aggression or an object of a threat of aggression in which nuclear weapons are used".
  5. Refrain from the use of nuclear arms against Belarus, Kazakhstan and Ukraine.
  6. Consult with one another if questions arise regarding those commitment

With reference to point 1 especially, and points 2 and 3 in reasonable likelihood, remind me again why Ukraine should trust Russia to adhere to their own agreements.
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Putin already has Belarus and Kawakes tan in his pocket, he’s now going for the full house.
 
BobKowalski said:
Ukraine isn’t getting into NATO anytime soon anyway. The Russians won’t go away entirely, but if true, it does buy time and space to de-escalate the current situation which is to be welcomed.
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Agreed - Ukraine can’t join NATO with an active conflict so it’s sort of in Russia’s, *cough cough* sorry the separatists, hands anyway.
 
Mëtal Bikër said:
Aside from Iraq, what acts of "NATO aggression" has you concerned that if Ukraine becomes part of NATO and/or the EU that they'd launch an invasion of Russia?
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What the hell do you mean aside from Iraq? That's enough in itself.

Bay of Pigs Invasion (1961)
United States invasion of Grenada (1983)
United States invasion of Panama (1990)
Afghanistan Invasion (2001)
Aforementioned Iraq Invasion (2003)
Syria was illegal too
Plus all the JSOC assassinations without trial

I never I was concerned, I understand why they don't want a land border with a NATO country though, seems like they're the ones doing the most invading since it was set up.
 
bluesteel said:
What the hell do you mean aside from Iraq? That's enough in itself.

Bay of Pigs Invasion (1961)
United States invasion of Grenada (1983)
United States invasion of Panama (1990)
Afghanistan Invasion (2001)
Aforementioned Iraq Invasion (2003)
Syria was illegal too
Plus all the JSOC assassinations without trial

I never I was concerned, I understand why they don't want a land border with a NATO country though, seems like they're the ones doing the most invading since it was set up.
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Why are you insistent on equating US activity with NATO action?

The Bay of Pigs was about as far from NATO action as could be.
 
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