Russian invasion of Ukraine

[BlueHammer85]

It's a brave sacrifice, but have you had a wank yet?

funnily enough. Just a moment ago. Watched the Burnley v Spurs highlights. Can’t beat Sean Dyche causing havoc in the Prem. The Putin of football.

 

[Bill Walker]

It’s ok everyone.

i’ve changed my Facebook profile picture to a Ukrainian flag.

I suspect Russia will start to withdraw now.

Choose who can see this ?

1. Friends Only
2. Public (Anyone)
3. Those cunts on Bluemoon (Politics sub forum)
4. Putin
5. Two Gun Bob

 

[Slipper One]

I believe Boris shouldn’t be giving the illegal war rhetoric in the commons due to Iraq, makes the UK look like hypocrites.

I also said Russia should have been offered the same missile defence system NATO has, if he has security concerns, prior to this escalating, if he took it and pulled back troops, happy days. If he didn’t, it would have revealed his true intentions and I would supported some sort of emergency (initially temporary) NATO membership for Ukraine.

The fact is, when Russia complained, NATO basically said fuck off we’ll do what we want and so can Ukraine, and that’s when the diplomacy should have taken place, I mean NATO could have just took the fucking missile system out really couldn’t they, or pulled it back a bit geographically. I believe NATO have treated Russia as an enemy, and I can understand Russia’s nervousness about an expansion east they were promised wouldn’t happen.

I don’t know what Putins plans are, I’m not sure many do, I understand why he’d have security concerns and I don’t think NATO and in particular the US, are the good guys that many on here clearly do.

The only way back is for diplomacy, and I think the sanctions, at this stage, were a bad idea as they were too early, certainly whilst diplomacy was still an option.

And WE as in the UK shouldn’t be saying anything about peace or anything else, it should be Jens Stoltenberg and NATO.

I fear it’s all too late now.

On the other side of the argument, Putins speech was inconsistent with what he’s been saying, the fact he pulled the history of Ukraines sovereignty into it is extremely alarming. Like I said in my last post, IF this is only a Russian expansion he’ll take everything except Kiev, and IF that’s the case NATO have royally fucked up their diplomacy (I get it was lose-lose for NATO).

"I believe NATO have treated Russia as an enemy, and I can understand Russia’s nervousness about an expansion east they were promised wouldn’t happen."

But aren't Russia 'the enemy' in this bluesteel?

Ukraine want to join NATO, which they are perfectly entitled to do. NATO will not expand into Russia, there will never be any intention of invading that country or encroaching on it's land. The same cannot be said for Russia and whether it will expand into or intimidate neighbouring countries.

If Russia didn't take the aggressive stance that it has in recent years, then there wouldn't be an issue. NATO didn't cause this situation, Putin did.

 

[Mazzarelli's Swiss Cheese]

"I believe NATO have treated Russia as an enemy, and I can understand Russia’s nervousness about an expansion east they were promised wouldn’t happen."

But aren't Russia 'the enemy' in this bluesteel?

Ukraine want to join NATO, which they are perfectly entitled to do. NATO will not expand into Russia, there will never be any intention of invading that country or encroaching on it's land. The same cannot be said for Russia and whether it will expand into or intimidate neighbouring countries.

If Russia didn't take the aggressive stance that it has in recent years, then there wouldn't be an issue. NATO didn't cause this situation, Putin did.

It's a fair point and well made, but in terms of expansion compare Russia/USSR and NATO over the last 30 yrs and then consider who is expanding, intimidating or being aggressive.

 

[bluesteel]

"I believe NATO have treated Russia as an enemy, and I can understand Russia’s nervousness about an expansion east they were promised wouldn’t happen."

But aren't Russia 'the enemy' in this bluesteel?

Ukraine want to join NATO, which they are perfectly entitled to do. NATO will not expand into Russia, there will never be any intention of invading that country or encroaching on it's land. The same cannot be said for Russia and whether it will expand into or intimidate neighbouring countries.

If Russia didn't take the aggressive stance that it has in recent years, then there wouldn't be an issue. NATO didn't cause this situation, Putin did.

I meant since the fall of communism, when they clearly were enemies with the US, should have added that bit.

“NATO will not expand into Russia, there will never be any intention of invading that country or encroaching on it's land.”

I honestly wouldn’t put my kids lives on that, if the US had the tech to 100 % shoot down any missile… They have a bit of a history for “regime change”. This is Russia’s issue.

Edit. It’s why I was harping on about Iraq, if the US had a missile system that negated Russian weapons, I could see the US doing to Russia, as what they did to Iraq, most likely over gas instead of oil. If I think that, the Russians sure as hell do too.

 

[Slipper One]

It's a fair point and well made, but in terms of expansion compare Russia/USSR and NATO over the last 30 yrs and then consider who is expanding, intimidating or being aggressive.

Correct, it has been expanding, but by a country's choice, not by force. If Ukraine chose not to join NATO, then it wouldn't be forced to.

 

[Slipper One]

I meant since the fall of communism, when they clearly were enemies with the US, should have added that bit.

“NATO will not expand into Russia, there will never be any intention of invading that country or encroaching on it's land.”

I honestly wouldn’t put my kids lives on that, if the US had the tech to 100 % shoot down any missile… They have a bit of a history for “regime change”. This is Russia’s issue.

Edit. It’s why I was harping on about Iraq, if the US had a missile system that negated Russian weapons, I could see the US doing to Russia, as what they did to Iraq, most likely over gas instead of oil. If I think that, the Russians sure as hell do too.

I understand what you mean by the US, but for it to make a move on Russia it would need the support of Europe and I'd be fairly confident that it wouldn't get it.

 

[Mazzarelli's Swiss Cheese]

Correct, it has been expanding, but by a countries choice, not by force. If Ukraine chose not to join NATO, then it wouldn't be forced to.

Of course, but where is it sensible to stop pushing NATO east in order to stop inflaming tensions with the very nation NATO was designed to oppose? An open rather than leading question, as apparently Clinton did suggest to Yeltsin that Russia join NATO.

 

[Slipper One]

Of course, but where is it sensible to stop pushing NATO east in order to stop inflaming tensions with the very nation NATO was designed to oppose? An open rather than leading question, as apparently Clinton did suggest to Yeltsin that Russia join NATO.

Countries should be able to make their own choices, not be intimidated by a petulant Putin who yearns for a return to the old days of control.

Why should NATO step back when Putin throws his toys out of the pram, all that encourages is a sign of weakness.

NATO is doing nothing wrong. An independent country, by their own choice, decides it wants to legally join NATO and Putin doesn't like it, so resorts to force and intimidation.

If Ukraine do join, then that's the border that NATO stops at, it has no inclination to move further into Russia itself.

 

[bluesteel]

I understand what you mean by the US, but for it to make a move on Russia it would need the support of Europe and I'd be fairly confident that it wouldn't get it.

They didn’t have European support for Iraq, just the UK and Poland. I also should have emphasised that I doubt Russia had any immediate security concern, most likely a longer term concern. I just can’t believe it wasn’t addressed and resolved diplomatically.

Maybe I’m wrong and Putin is after something else, but I cannot for the life of me see what Russia gain by this other than distance between NATO weapons and Moscow, it’s not like they need the land.

 

[SWP's back]

Putin's history lesson from Monday translated into this grafik:


View attachment 37099


Putin only accepts the blue core as Ukraine.
This is a pre-justification for the action to be expected soon.

Russia was ruled from Kiev long before Moscow even existed. If anything, Russian lands should be owned by Ukraine.

 

[Mazzarelli's Swiss Cheese]

Countries should be able to make their own choices, not be intimidated by a petulant Putin who yearns for a return to the old days of control.

Why should NATO step back when Putin throws his toys out of the pram, all that encourages is a sign of weakness.

NATO is doing nothing wrong. An independent country, by their own choice, decides it wants to legally join NATO and Putin doesn't like it, so resorts to force and intimidation.

If Ukraine do join, then that's the border that NATO stops at, it has no inclination to move further into Russia itself.

I'm not contesting the right of countries to join NATO or even suggesting NATO is doing anything wrong. I do think it is not sensible to extend what is a cold war construct up to Moscow's doorstep though.

 

[Grassland Blue]

I'm going Friday!!!

Give my regards to the "Berliner Republik".

 

[ChicagoBlue]

I'm not contesting the right of countries to join NATO or even suggesting NATO is doing anything wrong. I do think it is not sensible to extend what is a cold war construct up to Moscow's doorstep though.

You are Neville Chamberlain and I claim my £5!

 

[ultimateharold]

Putin announces action whilst the US speaks at the UN.

 

[ChicagoBlue]

It's a fair point and well made, but in terms of expansion compare Russia/USSR and NATO over the last 30 yrs and then consider who is expanding, intimidating or being aggressive.

Makes you wonder why those old Soviet Republics didn’t want to stay in cahoots with whomever was the Dictator of Russia du jour, and instead sought to ensure protection from Russia seizing their land in any future rebuilding of the USSR…or other “redrawing of our historic lands,” doesn’t it?!

I’m not sure what you find intimidating, aggressive or expansionary about that???

NATO doesn’t need to send out strong-armed invitations, but they can listen to the requests they receive from SOVEREIGN NATIONS seeking protection, can’t they?

 

[ChicagoBlue]

I meant since the fall of communism, when they clearly were enemies with the US, should have added that bit.

“NATO will not expand into Russia, there will never be any intention of invading that country or encroaching on it's land.”

I honestly wouldn’t put my kids lives on that, if the US had the tech to 100 % shoot down any missile… They have a bit of a history for “regime change”. This is Russia’s issue.

Edit. It’s why I was harping on about Iraq, if the US had a missile system that negated Russian weapons, I could see the US doing to Russia, as what they did to Iraq, most likely over gas instead of oil. If I think that, the Russians sure as hell do too.

The “regime change” Russia fears is the expansion of decentralized capitalism and the democracy that it fuels, not the other way around!!

You are saying they’re worried about the apple’s rotten core, but they’re really worried that Russians might like the peel so much they take a bite of the apple…and like it so much they keep eating it…until they throw out the rotten core!

 

[Slipper One]

I'm not contesting the right of countries to join NATO or even suggesting NATO is doing anything wrong. I do think it is not sensible to extend what is a cold war construct up to Moscow's doorstep though.

"I do think it is not sensible to extend what is a cold war construct up to Moscow's doorstep though."

But it's sensible for Putin to extend his control up to NATO's border?

 

[Mazzarelli's Swiss Cheese]

Makes you wonder why those old Soviet Republics didn’t want to stay in cahoots with whomever was the Dictator of Russia du jour, and instead sought to ensure protection from Russia seizing their land in any future rebuilding of the USSR…or other “redrawing of our historic lands,” doesn’t it?!

I’m not sure what you find intimidating, aggressive or expansionary about that???

NATO doesn’t need to send out strong-armed invitations, but they can listen to the requests they receive from SOVEREIGN NATIONS seeking protection, can’t they?

I don't find it intimidating - I'm not Russian.
I take your point though - it's just like Cuba inviting Russia in

 

[ultimateharold]

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