Russian invasion of Ukraine

Gorton_Tubster said:
Russian gas will mean they can do what they want. Germany, the rest of europe should bite the bullet now or it will be harder in future. They'll be puppets of the Russians.
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This may be naive of me but I tend to agree.

"Standing shoulder to shoulder in support of Ukraine, apart from giving Russia money for their oil and gas, or stopping financial trade with them", doesn't sit comfortably with me. OK I understand our reluctance to send troops on the ground, but if we are going to rely on sanctions then they have to be sanctions that really bite, and if that means some hardship for us in terms of much increased petrol and energy prices then I think we have to bear it. And think ourselves lucky we are not going through what Ukraine is going through.

And I am sure western governments can print a few hundred billion more to help the poorest with their energy bills anyway.
 
Kompany Car said:
Can anyone tell me what the point of the United Nations is because whenever anything kicks off they seem to do fuck all.
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Russia and China are permanent, veto power holding, members of the Security Council - it makes it difficult for them to pass any resolution against Russia. I mention China as they haven't, from my understanding, chastised Russia yet.
 
grunge said:


Usual disclamer of no fact checking here.
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True or not it's very likely that British anti-tank weapons supplied last week contributed to those statistics.

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bluealf said:
What are Nato going to do once he has taken control of Ukraine and killed all his opponents?

It is alright saying we don't want a war with Russia but he is literally taking what he wants as they sit on the sidelines talking about sanctions.
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The ironic thing is that the excuse (at least one of them) for this invasion is the eastward expansion of NATO. Yet by invading Ukraine, NATO will now be plumb on Putin's western border. Russian and NATO troops will be eyeballing each other on either side of the Polish, Hungarian and Romanian borders.
 
Roy Munson said:
Yep. They're in a tricky situation. Nearly 50% of German homes rely on gas for heating. They can't just switch it off. And in fairness to them, they have some admirable plans to move towards being solely reliant on renewable energy sources. Unfortunately, the transition towards this has actually increased their need for fossil fuels.
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Germany and europe in general have opened themselves to an insane national security risk by becoming dependant on one rogue nation for most of their energy needs. It is madness to have allowed it to happen, a complete dearth of competent leadership throughout the west.

These leaders in charge have become far too complacent, this has been building for nigh on 10 years and they had zero contingency plan, if anything they have just become further dependant on russian gas during that time, insanity.

It maybe highlights the one major flaw with a democratic government in comparison to authoritarians, in that they can rarely make long term plans as they continuously need short term support to get elected, quick and easy solutions work best but often neglect the long term and leads to ignoring difficult problems until later.

I wonder if this will also highlight the worlds dependence on China for a lot of manufacturing should they start to act up.
 
blueinsa said:
Again it’s not fair or true to say this.

Ukraine government has never asked for military help on the ground and they understand why it could never be given.

The world is pretty much united in its condemnation of Russia and sanctions are huge with more to come.

They are not alone.
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I'm not suggesting they're asking for boots on the ground or that we should offer it, I'm saying we (the West not just UK) aren't going anywhere near as hard on Russia as we could and should. There's countries opposing banning Russia from swift because of self interest, Germany have so far done the most notable thing by halting nord 2 and that's commendable but there's suggestions they're against banning the Russians from swift because they feel they've done their part and don't want their own economy to suffer anymore, Italy are against it and want all the luxury goods they export to the Russian elite to be unsanctioned, Belgium want diamonds untouched, most of the Western world appear to be happy to just condemn Russia and see that as them doing their bit.

Whilst it may hurt the world short term, going as hard as possible now to end this as quickly as possible will save both money and lives further down the line both in Ukraine, Russia and likely the rest of the world.
 
bluesteel said:
Sure and Putin probably is a megalomaniac.

Russia have had a military base in Crimea for centuries, it’s where they have their Black Sea fleet, and is of massive strategic import should the need come for them to defend themselves.

Since the break up of the USSR Russia have leased the naval base from Ukraine.

When it looked like the Ukrainian people wanted to join the EU and more pertinently NATO it would have meant Russia losing the naval base and having a US naval base there in it’s place.

There was also the likelihood of a US military base and missile system going into Ukraine.

These are the facts as I see them.

When Russia lost its puppet president in Ukraine in the 2014 coup, the writing was on the wall that they would join NATO as they were provisionally accepted in 2008.

Almost instantaneously they annexed Crimea, there was no way that the Russians were going to give up their strategic naval base and have a US naval base replace it, the thought of that to the Russia admirals would have been incomprehensible.

Again, straight after the pro Russian president was ousted in a violent coup in Ukraine, fighting broke out in the East of the country, where it is mainly Russian speaking and not Ukrainian speaking, where it is mainly pro Russian and not pro European. This suited Putin as it meant Ukraine couldn’t join NATO, the Ukrainian army went into the east and the Russian army went into the west, a ceasefire was agreed and there was an agreement signed.

The Russian rebels held Ukrainian land in the east, and it had by an largely died down by 2021.

Russia approached NATO, and said to NATO that they want Crimea recognised as Russian and also guarantees that Ukraine will not become a US military base by being in NATO.

NATO refused. Why? Russia moved their troops to the Ukraine border, they were clearly saying in further negotiations if you do not give us guarantees, we will invade. NATO said no, why? Why would a defensive alliance, both allow and cause the invasion of Ukraine? I’m not talking about Ukraine joining the EU here, Russia were perfectly happy for them to join the EU this is about losing Sevastopol to the US and NATO and not having a US military base in Ukraine. Why do the US need military bases and missiles next to Russia?

Honestly I’m sick of NATO and the US they are jeopardising our security not enhancing it. Seriously what next? Asking Taiwan to join?
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What a weird warped take on it.

Ironically, you have bought into the exact same stance that you are accusing NATO/the US of forcing onto the world. Just taken the other side, that's all.

Paranoia of democratic decisions of nations is no excuse to invade sovereign countries.

Should NATO be allowed to invade Ukraine, or any country, if they don't apply to join? Belarus sits happily out of it, aligned with Russia, hasn't been invaded. If it decided to join, should Putin have the automatic right to invade it? NATO doesn't 'spread'. Countries join it, willingly. Ukraine chose to try do so. It doesn't justify or excuse an invasion in supposed retaliation to a legitimate democratic choice FFS.
 
Prestwich_Blue said:
The ironic thing is that the excuse (at least one of them) for this invasion is the eastward expansion of NATO. Yet by invading Ukraine, NATO will now be plumb on Putin's western border. Russian and NATO troops will be eyeballing each other on either side of the Polish, Hungarian and Romanian borders.
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I have heard from multiple credible sources that a number of army units are being moved overseas. Nothing is being announced for obvious reasons but there's a lot of army traffic moving south on the A1 & M1.
 
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