Russian invasion of Ukraine

Bazzmand Show said:
Yep exactly.

What Russia is doing is disgusting, but the west should also fuck off and stop trying to use Ukraine as some sort of militaristic chess piece.
Click to expand...
But what about what Ukraine wants? It seems to be increasingly ignored. If they want to be part of NATO, or the EU or indeed they just want to be an independent democratic country, do they not have that right?? Are you actually suggesting that they have no choice themselves?
 
domalino said:
So that would be a no then, you can’t back it up.
Click to expand...
I can actually as I have what you might describe as something of a passing academic interest in this specific area. Rather than me link or post acres of peer reviewed and published articles that back this up, I suggest you get your hello kitty phone out and Google 'Stephen Walt Russia Ukraine'. This will provide exactly what you ask, as well as some equally reasoned opposing arguments which I think you might enjoy more. You are most welcome.
 
Bazzmand Show said:
I don't like him either, but he raises some points that are worth considering.
Click to expand...

I struggle to think of any situation where my understanding would be improved with a Russell Brand ‘hot take’.

I mean, this isn’t difficult is it? A democratic sovereign nation has been invaded by its larger neighbour and are killing people in the name of ‘liberation‘. The majority of the world is largely opposed, sanctions are being implemented, Poland is refusing to play its WC tie with Russia and the Ukrainians are fighting desperately to preserve their homeland.

So, what exactly is your point?
 
Johnny Mars Bar said:
There’s a fascinating thread on Twitter from an American tank engineer about how old and ineffective tanks actually are. The jist is that they look really cool but are mostly decades old heaps of shit that are pretty easily disabled.
Click to expand...

Ive always thought they’re an easy target in the modern warfare age. They are even more vulnerable in a built up City.
 
bellsouth said:
But what about what Ukraine wants? It seems to be increasingly ignored. If they want to be part of NATO, or the EU or indeed they just want to be an independent democratic country, do they not have that right?? Are you actually suggesting that they have no choice themselves?
Click to expand...

NATO decides who joins NATO.
 
SWP's back said:
Course he can’t but he did unsuccessfully try an argument to authority.

Wish there was a separate thread where he and the other two muppets could just chat bollocks and Putin propaganda to each other and leave the rest of us in peace.
Click to expand...

The problem is that his “authority” bases his entire philosophy on the idea that no international organisation or agreement can prevent war, which has been fundamentally disproven by 75 years of peace between NATO and Russia and that only countries NOT in defence pacts have been attacked in that time.

That single, undeniable fact completely destroys Walt’s entire philosophy, so he must come up with a way to blame the defence pact for war.

In doing so he ends up repeating Russian propaganda and just being incredibly dishonest by saying things like Russia is forced into war by having NATO states on its border - which obviously doesn’t hold water because Russia has shared borders with NATO countries since the founding of NATO in 1949…
 
Most conflicts in the world are complicated with valid points of view from both sides.
This isn’t one of them. It’s the most straightforward act of unprovoked naked aggression since Germany invaded Poland, and we’ve still got the usual wankers on here trying to see it from both sides. Wish they’d just fuck off.
 
From Twitter by Zoya Sheftalovich @zoyashef

Watching Putin's attack on
Ukraine play out, I am
struck by the thought that
Putin learned the lesson
from the wrong Afghanistan
war. And he has also vastly
misunderstood post-
Zelenskiy Ukraine. 1/?

I don't have any particular
insight into Putin - though
have read a lot of things
much smarter people than I
am have written about him.
But I do know Russians,
and I know Ukrainians, and
I know Ukrainian Jews. 2/?

Putin, I think, lives in a
pre-1991/92 world. A world
in which the USSR was one
whole, if dysfunctional
package, of which Ukraine
was a part. But here's the
thing. Putin has lost touch
hello, bunker mentality. 3/?

He has lost touch with
ordinary Russians - though
he is able to mold them
(particularly those who
watch state-run TV or read
state-run newspapers)
every which way he wants,
the younger generation is
accessing media he doesn't
control. And Putin is
famously tech averse.. 4/?

But even more so, he has
lost touch with Ukrainians,
Ukrainians who do
have
access to dissenting media,
and who, since 1991, have
developed a sense of
statehood. 5/?

When you surround yourself
only with sycophants, suck-
ups and people who are
afraid of you, you never
hear dissent, you lose that
finger on the pulse. So
Putin in 2022 is looking at
Ukraine from a Soviet/1992
perspective. But today's
Russia is not the Soviet
union. 6/?

Ukrainians living in the
USSR at least had an
ideology, broken though it
was, to believe in. The
USSR was the Union of
Soviet Socialist Republics.
It was not Russia. Sure,
Russia was the big boy,
sure the USSR was ruled
out of Moscow. But the
USSR ‡ Russia. 7/?

Now, when you were (as
was) a Ukrainian living in
the USSR, you saw yourself
as fighting for socialism, for
equality. Sure, that wasn't
the reality, but at least you
could tell yourself that there
was something bigger than
you that you were suffering
for. 8/?

Soviets are intimately
acquainted with suffering
for the greater good. But
here's the thing: there's a
difference between
suffering for a cause, and
suffering for what everyone
in RU and in UKR knows is
a corrupt oligarchy that
exists to enrich one man
and his entourage. 9/?

Back to Afghanistan. Putin,
I think, saw 2021 Taliban
takeover of Afghanistan,
and that galvanized him to
invade Ukraine. I reckon he
thought he'd roll into Kyiv
the way the Taliban rolled
into Kabul. Thought
ordinary Ukrainians
wouldn't resist. No
bloodshed. Clean. Quick.
10/?

He saw himself in the role
of the Taliban. Banished by
those pesky Americans,
sitting, waiting, building,
ready to pounce. He saw
what the US did to
Afghanistan, the impotence
of Europe on that front, and
thought: Aha, I'm going to
go
"'liberate"' Ukraine. 11/?

On Monday, in his frankly
unhinged speech, he told
Ukrainians to lay down their
arms and return to their
families, and they would not
be harmed. This, I think,
was his expectation. He
thought many, if not most,
Ukrainians would do so.
12/?

He thought they wouldn't
care who was installed in
Kyiv to govern them. And
you know what: If he had
done this while Yanukovych
or even Poroshenko was in
power, if he had done this
while he had career-
politicians and/or his
buddies in Kyiv, he might
have been right. 13/?

But Zelenskiy is a clean-
skin. He's a satirist
funnyman who until v.
recently made dick jokes
for a living. His ascent to
the presidency, unlike
Putin's, was driven by
desire to make things
better, to get rid of graft
and corruption. Don't get
me wrong, he's not perfect. 14/?

But suddenly, Ukraine had
a president it could believe
in. A president who wasn
a cynical appointee of
some other country, who
wasn't someone seeking
the presidency to enrich
themselves. (@herszenhorn
has an excellent profile of
him here: politico.eu/article/
ukrain…) 15/?

And when Putin attacked
Ukraine, Zelenskiy, a 44-
year-old Colbert-type - he
didn't get on the first plane
out of Kyiv, a la Ashraf
Ghani and co. He stayed.
He is still in Kyiv. When
Putin talked about
decapitating Ukraine's
government, he is not
talking metaphorically. 16/?

Putin literally wants to take
out Zelenskiy, because he
can"
"t control him. He has
no baggage. And instead of
fleeing and running a
government in exile from
somewhere safe, Zelenskiy
stayed, knowing what fate
awaited him. His prime
minister - stayed. His
cabinet - stayed. 17/?

That's what this video is
about: twitter.com/
mrsorokaa/stat.
@ 8hrs
Zelenskiy is saying: Look,
we are all here. We aren't
running, We're fighting. And
so, Ukrainians, ordinary
Ukrainians, they have
something to fight for too.
They have someone to
believe in. 18/?

So, Putin, expected
Afghanistan 2021. But he
got Afghanistan 1979.
Ukrainians aren't rolling
over or welcoming back an
old friend. They are digging
in for war. And that's an
ugly scenario indeed 19/?

To be clear. here is what
think (again, this is not
reported fact, this is my
personal read): Putin
expected Ukrainians to lay
down their arms, Zelenskiy
to flee. He could then install
a Putinist puppet in Kyiv,
take Donbas and Crimea
and probably a chunk more
20/?

He could take out Ukraine's
military capabilities (his
"demilitarization"), have a
friendly mate he could
control next door, and then
roll back to Russia. Declare
his"
"peacekeeping"
mission
over after a few days. Few
casualties. West may
grumble, but not enough to
hurt. 21/?

What Putin got instead:
Zelenskly stayed and
mobilized Ukrainians. The
army fought much much
harder than he thought they
would. People did not lay
down their arms. For the
most part, they didn't run
away from the war. And
now it gets messy. What's
Putin to do? 22/?

Russians, doped up as they
are on RT and TASS and
Rossiya 24, well, they're
starting to see their
favourite singers and actors
speak up about what is a
FULL SCALE WAR! They're
seeing photos of bombed
kindergartens, dead kids.
They're seeing this isn't
going to be a walkover.
23/?

And oh, this is going to
hurt. It'll hurt Putin. It'll hurt
his entourage. In the words
of a now sadly deleted
tweet from the account of
@JosepBorrelIF, no more
Gucci lifestyle (though,
actually, they can still get
Gucci). All those oligarchs
must_ be getting nervous
now. 24/?

So, Putin expected a cake walk but
there
"'s no cake to be seen. What's he
to do? Try to kill Zelenskiy? He'll die a
martyr. How do you control a country
of 44 million Ukrainians who suddenly
have something to believe in? 25/?
 
There's some fucking weirdo's on here. A complete **** of a man decides to invade a sovereign state, for some cock waving reason or other. Killing and displacing thousands of people but somehow this is the fault of the nasty West. I can only think it's a 'look at me being all edgy and different' attitude. You're fucking disgraces, thank fuck you're not in Ukraine fighting for your country or the Russians will have already won.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Unread Posts

Don't have an account? Register now and see fewer ads!

SIGN UP
Back
Top