Russian invasion of Ukraine

[Citizen of Legoland]

I think you'll find the atmosphere revolves with the earth. Either that or we'd be living in 1000 mph winds. Latitude might make a difference.

Ok got it now. Every day's a school day.

 

[SWP's back]

You’ve totally lost the plot posting that nonsense.

It’s actually quite sad.

 

[SWP's back]

We must confront Russian propaganda – even when it comes from those we respect | George Monbiot

The grim truth is that for years, a small part of the ‘anti-imperialist’ left has been recycling Putin’s falsehoods, says Guardian columnist George Monbiot

www.theguardian.com

“This puts me in a difficult place. Among the worst disseminators of Kremlin propaganda in the UK are people with whom I have, in the past, shared platforms and made alliances. The grim truth is that, for years, a segment of the “anti-imperialist” left has been recycling and amplifying Putin’s falsehoods.”

Read here to see why the “NATO expansion” is flimsy and doesn’t wash…


And here…


Look at these quotes from Putin:

“The collapse of the Soviet empire was the greatest geopolitical catastrophe of the century”, 2005
(Although not from a Communism point-of-view since he also once said “communism is a blind alley, far away from the mainstream of civilisation" - which I do agree with.)

“The cause of Peter the Great is still alive” (2019)
(Peter the Great founded the Russian Empire and was the man who had the biggest aims for a greatest Russian expanse possible. Putin has a statue of Peter the Great on his desk.)

He’s said that the Bolsheviks robbed Russia of Russian lands when they relinquished Ukraine. He doesn’t recognise the sovereignty of Ukraine at all.

Look at the reasoning he’s giving for it back in Russia:
“we need to rid the world of the drug-taking neo-nazis who are using children as human shields”. He’s not even mentioned NATO expansion to his people!

Watch this week’s Panorama.

BBC One - Panorama, Putin’s War in Ukraine

Panorama asks what lies behind Putin's invasion of Ukraine.

www.bbc.co.uk

Read up on Russian Troll Factories:


And stop falling for their bollocks.

Great post.

 

[SWP's back]

Alaska/Russia , Norway/ Russia both in the frozen wastelands. were the only borders where the founding members of NATO/Russia interjected. Alaska is separated from Russia by the Bering sea, Norway land border with Russia is tiny.

Using Russia and USSR is disengenous, the USSR no longer exists, the Warsaw Pact has gone. The Warsaw Pact bordered NATO of course, but since its disintegration many Warsaw Pact countries are now NATO countries.

Putin may be an Imperialist who wants to restore the former influence of Russia over its former satellite states, but it has shown no sign at all of the expansionism of NATO.

Lenin referred to Imperialism as the highest stage of Capitalism and NATO is being used to promote Capitalism and as we have seen in this thread demonise the left. It is eradication of left wing thinking on a mass scale.

Putin though is not a left wing leader, he is an authoritarian Nationalist and I have said before he is dangerous and should be stopped. However NATO is not the cuddly benign organisation its made out to be. This is not as black and white as its being made out. The propaganda is not one sided. FFS, we had Nadine Dorries praising the BBC yesterday and she wanted to defund it last week.

Maybe as @swpsback says i should educate myself on twitter

Given that absolute load of turd, yes, yes you really should.

 

[Octavian]

I rarely agree with you but I have always said the same thing

It’s because it’s true. Look at every communist dictator and every fascist dictator and you’ll only see a difference in economic policy, the rest is pretty much the same. In fact fascists often talk about redistribution of wealth too and often use some socialist economic methods. If you actually get subtitles from a Hitler speech, he talks a lot around the aristocracy paying for ordinary Germans to have a better life, it’s why the old conservative guard despised him and were driven out - well the ones that didn’t make his inner circle. Mussolini found it very easy to go from being a poster boy for the far left to being the **** we know him for on the far right.

To keep it to current events, Putin is definitely behaving exactly like a fascist, in fact that’s exactly what he is. He used to be a cog in the communist machine and looks back on those days with rose tinted glasses.

 

[urban genie]

Apologies, I misread your first post.

I'll delete it now. I'll leave this one on here though to show I fucked up!

Dont worry about it, this thread goes thick and fast, keepimgnup with all the opinions/comments is tough for us all :-)

 

[flook]

NATO could have said NO.

Which is the whole point, NATO have been too eager to increase their membership and fuck everyone else. Was the dangers of this expansionism ever considered, doesn't look like it as it was too eager to increase its sphere of influence. By definition NATO is a defensive alliance, so why the expansionism?

I'm not sure you can consider NATO approach "expansionism". It is a reactive process, Countries apply to join, presumably as membership, they believe, will improve their position should, oh I don't know, some random super power come a knocking

 

[SWP's back]

NATO expansionism.

How close is Turkey to the North Atlantic?

When NATO expands, does it do it by attacking countries it wants to get in, sending over 150,000 troops, shelling residential areas and trying to assassinate their heads of state?

Or is it a defensive alliance that countries can request to join?

You’ve jumped the shark on this thread you crank.

 

[Bazzmand Show]

It’s because it’s true. Look at every communist dictator and every fascist dictator and you’ll only see a difference in economic policy, the rest is pretty much the same. In fact fascists often talk about redistribution of wealth too and often use some socialist economic methods. If you actually get subtitles from a Hitler speech, he talks a lot around the aristocracy paying for ordinary Germans to have a better life, it’s why the old conservative guard despised him and were driven out - well the ones that didn’t make his inner circle. Mussolini found it very easy to go from being a poster boy for the far left to being the **** we know him for on the far right.

To keep it to current events, Putin is definitely behaving exactly like a fascist, in fact that’s exactly what he is. He used to be a cog in the communist machine and looks back on those days with rose tinted glasses.

Putin has always been more in favour of capatalism, he's definetly not a socialist or communist in the traditional sense.

 

[Chris B]

Alaska/Russia , Norway/ Russia both in the frozen wastelands. were the only borders where the founding members of NATO/Russia interjected. Alaska is separated from Russia by the Bering sea, Norway land border with Russia is tiny.

Using Russia and USSR is disengenous, the USSR no longer exists, the Warsaw Pact has gone. The Warsaw Pact bordered NATO of course, but since its disintegration many Warsaw Pact countries are now NATO countries.

Putin may be an Imperialist who wants to restore the former influence of Russia over its former satellite states, but it has shown no sign at all of the expansionism of NATO.

Lenin referred to Imperialism as the highest stage of Capitalism and NATO is being used to promote Capitalism and as we have seen in this thread demonise the left. It is eradication of left wing thinking on a mass scale.

Putin though is not a left wing leader, he is an authoritarian Nationalist and I have said before he is dangerous and should be stopped. However NATO is not the cuddly benign organisation its made out to be. This is not as black and white as its being made out. The propaganda is not one sided. FFS, we had Nadine Dorries praising the BBC yesterday and she wanted to defund it last week.

Maybe as @swpsback says i should educate myself on twitter

Turkey is also a long standing NATO member with a border with the former USSR state of Georgia. I’m not familiar with the geography there but I doubt it is a frozen wasteland.

The black and white is this: every NATO member is a member through choice, while the Russian interference in Georgia, Moldavia and Ukraine is done against the will of democratically elected governments. It’s the simple moral principle of allowing people to make their own free choice about how their country is run.

 

[SWP's back]

NATO could have said NO.

Which is the whole point, NATO have been too eager to increase their membership and fuck everyone else. Was the dangers of this expansionism ever considered, doesn't look like it as it was too eager to increase its sphere of influence. By definition NATO is a defensive alliance, so why the expansionism?

Because countries want to be protected by the ALL FOR ONE nature and know that once they’re in, their sovereignty is guaranteed. Which Georgia and Ukraine would happily have right now. Why do you think Moldova now want in in double fast time?

 

[Mazzarelli's Swiss Cheese]

I'm not sure you can consider NATO approach "expansionism". It is a reactive process, Countries apply to join, presumably as membership, they believe, will improve their position should, oh I don't know, some random super power come a knocking

NATO was essentially a cold war necessity to confront the very real threat of the Warsaw pact. With the benefit of hindsight we should probably have looked to wind down NATO during the 90's. I suppose though that with the old Soviet nuclear arsenal still very much there and European countries not willing or able to commit to the nessecary defense spending we still needed the us military presence in Europe. I think Europe/the EU could possibly extend to Ukraine etc in a benign way, but NATO membership just carries too much cold war (anti russian) baggage.

 

[SWP's back]

Anyone usimg aocual media to be educated on this war should stay off the internet.

Up to now known false claims

Russia took control of Odessa early on woth pictures of flags being hoisted - footage was from 2014 and Denesk
Russians wiping out the ukrainina forces of Snake Island - they all turned up alive in Odessa.
Russaia blowing up and arms factory - was a warehouse fire from china
The ghost of kyiv - footage from a video game and of an argentinain pilot
Zelensky on the front line in combat gear - all photos are from a visit to an army vamp in 2021
Little girl covered in blood on a hospital bed - was a Syrian girl from a picture 5 years ago.


All of these have been shared widely giving false stories of russian and ukrainian victories and other events, all are not true.

Twitter itls the worst place to follow this war or learn about it.

The thread was written about Russia’s imperialist desires and written by a professor that’s written a fucking book on it so don’t talk shite.

 

[ashytheblue]

Russian civilian's now face 5years in prison for calling the "operation" a war.

Surely with this and the sanctions on Russia the people will start to turn on the regime?

 

[Tommy_Catons_Perm]

What is a very sad and depressing thought for me - and a bit off topic perhaps - is how on earth did Putin get into such a state that he thinks that killing people is perfectly OK? What on earth did his parents ever teach him? How do monsters like this get made?

Of course sometimes, wars are unavoidable in the protection of our freedoms, but we should never be the aggressors. Killing in self-defence if someone with a knife breaks into your house, and tries to kill you and your kids? Well that is one thing.

But sitting in an ivory tower and ordering the executions for e.g. the Skripals or Litvinenko, or doubtless the countless dozens or hundreds in Russia we never get to hear about? And sending thousands of Russian soldiers to their deaths, in order to achieve some political objective?

How on earth does anyone ever become this evil??? It boggles my mind.

Also sad and depressing is the thought that a deranged psychopath has so much power. He is soley responsible for killing thousands of people and inflicting misery and suffering on millions more. He could even destroy the world.

A fundamental flaw that Russia has created the circumstances for this to happen.

 

[west didsblue]

Here's an example for the NATO bashers.
In the 50s/60s De Gaulle wasn't happy with NATO so France withdrew. Nothing happened.
In 1956/1968 Hungary then Czechoslovakia wanted to decide for themselves how they wanted to be governed. The USSR invaded both of those countries for having the temerity to not want to have the same system of government as them that was fully aligned to Moscow.
NATO doesn't force its values on anyone and consists of countries with huge differences in their approach to governance who can leave NATO whenever they want. Unsurprisingly, other than France who fully re-joined in 2009, no other country has chosen to leave.
Russia wants to control everything in its sphere of influence. The fact that its not the USSR any more is immaterial. It's the same totalitarian principle.

 

[mancityvstoke]

Russian civilian's now face 5years in prison for calling the "operation" a war.

Surely with this and the sanctions on Russia the people will start to turn on the regime?

The Holocaust never stopped the Nazis until we attacked them (Along with allies and with Russia)
People seem to go along with all sorts of atrocities.

Unarmed civilians don't stand a chance against armies and robocops.

 

[Octavian]

Putin has always been more in favour of capatalism, he's definetly not a socialist or communist in the traditional sense.

You’re right and it’s why I was careful with what I said, I said he was part of the communist machine. He is hell bent on power and that is by far most important to him. He worked for the communists because his authoritarian views matched theirs.

 

[grunge]

Not sure if its been mentioned here but I was reading the nuclear plant attack may well be an attempt by Russia to drag NATO. If the International Atomic Energy Agency deems it worthy they can request NATO secure any nuclear site anywhere in the world.

 

[roubaixtuesday]

That is a very sad statistic, but the Berlin Wall was built 15 years after the partition of Berlin. It was political symbolism that two different political and economic entities existed is the world

Sorry, but I completely disagree.

Whilst it was symbolic for sure, it was not installed as a symbol, it was a brutal and essential part of subjugating a whole region to Russian domination and communist ideology.

The East knew they couldn't sustain their totalitarian state without it.