Russian invasion of Ukraine

Mazzarelli's Swiss Cheese said:
If you don't like it report it to the mods or mi5/6 if it really troubles you but yes, NATO should have been wound down/repurposed or at least reviewed and rebranded to account for the diminished and retreating threat of the Warsaw pact.
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Why would I report stupidity? And what makes you think it troubles me that you have once again demonstrated your cluelessness?
 
If people are looking to help directly, a bunch of us have been finding private rooms on Airbnb contacting the hosts and booking them out. Not the hotels, just the small shared rooms or hostels. Puts money direct into the pockets of the people and in turn they’re letting the displaced stay there for free..
 
Metal Biker said:
To these apologists, NATO, Capitalism, the US, Western Ideology all go hand in hand.

wOrKeRs Of ThE wErLd UnTie!
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I've already seen this same thing with Corbyn who recently blamed everything on NATO until that made him look like a complete tit so he had to say that Russia must leave Ukraine (but yeah NATO are still the baddies)..

It's not even apologist, it's because they aren't arsed about wars or oppressed people, all they're arsed about is anyone joining the evil western empire. They definitely can't stand the idea that maybe western integration is something that Ukraine and the eastern bloc countries want, or maybe they're just too stupid and so they keep voting for it.....

If you put these people into power then they'd be shooting their own population for not doing as they're told just like Putin is doing. They're usually Marxists and Stalinists and we all know very well of his history on looking after his own people....
 
BlueHammer85 said:
so Russia could drop a bomb on a nuclear plant and we still won't enforce a no fly zone
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They don't need to fly over it to do that.

I don't know why seemingly intelligent people are suggesting a no fly zone. First of all, all the western leaders have said no way that is happening, and second it is pretty obvious that you cannot enforce a no-fly zone without shooting down Russian planes, which Russia would immediately interpret as an act of war, and then we are into WW3.

The west has made it VERY clear that whilst of course we support Ukraine as much as we can, when it comes to fighting the Russians, they are on their own.

A comment was made on Question Time last night which I found thought-provoking: In normal circumstances a military power such as the US, would say it rules nothing out and reserves all rights to take whatever military response is appropriate / necessary. Even if there are no plans to deploy troops, tanks or aircraft, you don't usually rule it out, so that the deterrent is there.

But in this case the US has not done that, in fact it has done the very opposite, publicly ruling out military intervention in Ukraine. The person on QT suggested that presumably it was a deliberate choice to put that message out and it was done for a reason. I think it's pretty clear what the reason is: The west will try to avert WW3 at all costs and will not do anything which seriously risks that.
 
The bottom line is that this whole sorry situation is scaring me a lot. Wars can start for the slightest mistakes. We don't want WW3. WW1 and WW2 was bad enough.

Will we ever ever learn????

 
The Light Was Yellow Sir said:
Sadly, it’s a lot easier than you’d imagine. I’d imagine that 3 weeks ago, many of the Russian army were reasonably normal men. I’d also imagine that now, many have turned into inhumane raping machines. I suspect the line between good and evil is a lot narrower than we’d all hope and believe it or be.
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People are people - all capable of great good and great bad. I doubt russian soldiers are any better or worse than they were a month ago
 
ashytheblue said:
alot of people following this plane from Russia

www.flightradar24.com

Live Flight Tracker - Real-Time Flight Tracker Map | Flightradar24

View flight SU7030 from Moscow to Budapest on Flightradar24
www.flightradar24.com www.flightradar24.com
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There has been NATO tankers in the air over Romania and Moldova since the start of the conflict, there has also been NATO spy planes over the Black Sea, today there is a tanker over Krakow, a spy plane and a tanker over Romania. The other day there were F-17s from a US base in Italy over Romania.
 
inbetween said:
I've already seen this same thing with Corbyn who recently blamed everything on NATO until that made him look like a complete tit so he had to say that Russia must leave Ukraine (but yeah NATO are still the baddies)..

It's not even apologist, it's because they aren't arsed about wars or oppressed people, all they're arsed about is anyone joining the evil western empire. They definitely can't stand the idea that maybe western integration is something that Ukraine and the eastern bloc countries want, or maybe they're just too stupid and so they keep voting for it.....

If you put these people into power then they'd be shooting their own population for not doing as they're told just like Putin is doing. They're usually Marxists and Stalinists and we all know very well of his history on looking after his own people....
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The Worker’s Party of GB, Galloway’s new little pet project when he’s not playing the Putin puppet, has as one of its policies to stop viewing the Soviet Union as an enemy and to formally recognise them as an ally.

Apart from the fact it’s a policy that’s 31 years out of date, and highlights where his head is stuck, it shows where the far left actually wants to be. This is a man who went on air to defend Fidel Castro after his death. This is who Corbyn’s lot are and we shouldn’t be surprised when communists support authoritarian dictators, they love it.
 
Mazzarelli's Swiss Cheese said:
People are people - all capable of great good and great bad. I doubt russian soldiers are any better or worse than they were a month ago
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Indeed they are but the only point I was making was that the bits that keep the ‘great bad’ from taking over, are not as solid and permanent as we think.

I know he was Russian, but I’ll risk quoting Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn anyway.

“The line separating good and evil passes not through states, nor between classes, nor between political parties either—but right through every human heart—and through all human hearts. This line shifts. Inside us, it oscillates with the years. And even within hearts overwhelmed by evil, one small bridgehead of good is retained. And even in the best of all hearts, there remains … an unuprooted small corner of evil.”

​

 
Rascal said:
There has been NATO tankers in the air over Romania and Moldova since the start of the conflict, there has also been NATO spy planes over the Black Sea, today there is a tanker over Krakow, a spy plane and a tanker over Romania. The other day there were F-17s from a US base in Italy over Romania.
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What's all that got to do with a Aeroflot passenger plane flight from Moscow -> Budapest - over Belarus then into Poland, then Slovakia, and landing in Hungary, through 3 'no fly' countries for Russian planes?

It's quite odd/different/unexpected and presumably currently unknown to the general public as to why it did.
Defection/escape?
Peace talks flight?

Edit: and I presume "F-17" is a typo, or if you've copied blindly from somewhere, I suggest you don't.
 
Chippy_boy said:
So that means he doesn't care? Many people in the UK would care about the break up on the UK, but not many of those people are in power. I think it's pretty clear that this is a big deal for Putin and the fact that he was not President when the USSR was at its peak, doesn't change that at all.
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No - I was just addressing your point that it was "his" empire. It wasn't
 
metalblue said:
Respectfully Russ that was a lot of revisionist nonsense. Not because it’s a counter narrative but because it was nonsense. I’ll give you just one example he refers to the Soviet Union as a coalition of socialist states and the west an imperialist beast. Coalition? Such a cuddly description. Whereas the indisputable facts are there before you; the Russians suppressed nations with force after WW2 to create their empire - with fighting continuing into the 1960s before their brutality laid waste to peoples spirit whereas the west hasn’t made any imperial conquests whatsoever in that time, in fact any “expansion” has been achieved via voluntary membership. By all means dispute this, but if you can’t then you have to question the veracity of the rest of the article when this is just so obviously wrong.

I don’t doubt, and have said here before, that the US misjudged things after the Cold War and Putin rise to power is a product of that misjudgment. But this war is a product of Putin, and Putin alone. I’m sympathetic - like everyone would be - to Russia’s genuine concerns and I’m sympathetic to the way the west went about things - but none of those genuine concerns justify the invasion of another peaceful state and killing women and kids and laying waste to cities. No one need to make excuses for Putin, he is a spiteful little **** and he needs stopping - the sooner the better.

Anyroad at least you live in a free society where you can express an alternative narrative - that’s not a gift the Russians have anymore. But I’m sure that’s not because Putin knows this is an holy unjust war and he can only “justify” it by controlling the narrative.
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I have expressed my thoughts that Putin is a ****, he is, but this is not a black and white situation. There are neo-Nazi's in the Donbass, the Azov battalion of the Ukranian army are notorious for being neo-Nazi. Are NATO now supporting Neo Nazis?

It just surprises me that people are so quick to toe the NATO/Western line. Sanctions will not hurt Oligarch's as much as they hurt the Russian working class, they will not hurt Putin as much as the UK working class. Putin's regime is based on gangsterism and his actions are appalling, my point though is that NATO and the West have not helped matters at all.

There are so many angles to this, not just Putin bad, Ukraine good.
 
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