How do we resolve the Brexit mess?

[Gabriel]

In no particular order:
10. Having to listen to nonces like Rees-Mogg blame it all on the EU

On that point, I haven’t discerned any difference, save the it is bigger.

 

[The Future’s Blue!]

There does seem to be plenty of Brexiteers moaning about Brexit which I don’t understand because they got their wish. Surely they must be jumping for joy at less immigration, greater ties with the rest of the world and not coming under certain governance from the EU.

All those who wanted to leave just need to be allowed to express why they wanted out and what we have achieved in the time that we’ve been free to do what we want.

Please, don’t get angry, let it all out and tell us what is good?

 

[Palerider]

The problems faced by the fishing industry don't affect me personally, neither am I particularly personally affected by the local cheese manufacturer who has seen his export trade dry up, I can still buy his cheeses. The fact that Eurostar is running two thirds full due to extra Brexit checks doesn't bother me and I'm not a lorry driver so not really bothered that they have to p;iss in bottles while queueing in Kent.

I'm not a touring musician so can't raise an objection to the difficult;ties faced by those who would like to tour Europe. I'm too old to consider working in Europe generally and although my sons aren't and have seen those opportunities lessened, well, doesn't bother me.

Really have to agree, from a personal point of view I don't have a problem with Brexit at all. I'm a selfish small picture type of **** after all.

So it has not affected you at all?

 

[journolud]

So it has not affected you at all?

You’re point being? Apart from higher gas and electric prices the war in Ukraine hasn’t really affected me either. So it’s probably alright isn’t it?

 

[Palerider]

I’ll start with a few,
Low growth and recovery from the pandemic
Chronic staff shortages in health / hospitals, care , hospitality, farming
Loss of markets overseas for farmed goods due to time for added bureaucracy.
The loss of my children's and their peers right to free movement in Europe.
Not me but a colleague that had a business buying and selling into N.Ireland has lost a big chunk of that business ( of course with the border within the UK that would never happen)

If this bonfire of EU law goes ahead all things that will get worse , as will workers rights and conditions.

Theres a start,I’m sure others will add to your list. While you wait maybe you could post a list of benefits for balance ?


T

Well thanks for replying but I'm not sure any of those reasons are totally because of brexit or affecting you disproportionately. I'm looking for things that have altered your life or way of living to justify the level of vitriol aimed at 'others' who don't vote the way you want.

 

[blueparrot]

So it has not affected you at all?

If things around you are affected then of course you are affected , I haven’t needed hospital treatment or a care home yet does that mean I’m not affected? What if I need one tomorrow can I say it had affected me then. It’s affecting my mum at the moment am I allowed to include that as an affect on me ?
Or are we all just being self centred about it.

 

[gordondaviesmoustache]

Well thanks for replying but I'm not sure any of those reasons are totally because of brexit or affecting you disproportionately.

So if they are only principally because of Brexit that’s ok, but you’ll draw the line at totally?

 

[blueparrot]

Well thanks for replying but I'm not sure any of those reasons are totally because of brexit or affecting you disproportionately. I'm looking for things that have altered your life or way of living to justify the level of vitriol aimed at 'others' who don't vote the way you want.

Of course they are all brexit, and every one affects me , what does disproportionately mean. They affect me and as yet you haven’t given one good reason why those affects are worth it.
Heres the thing I was against Brexit for many reasons , but after Brexit I thought there was a deal to be done that would mitigate all the worst affects, this government refused all those deals and settled on just about the worst possible brexit for everyone.
Nearly every problem I and others have listed could be fixed or mitigated quite easily without rejoining, it be won’t though because this government refuse to accept the issues and refuse to acknowledge the simple fix.

 

[Palerider]

I have no intention of discussing the details of my family and business finances on a football forum so you can either choose to believe me or not when I tell you it's had a significant material impact and by which I don't mean 'just' a few thousand quid.

Beyond finances it's also significantly impacted my children's life choices and made it more difficult for us to potentially leave the UK to one of our preferred destinations. This is slightly circular in that had Brexit and the subsequent challenges not happened we'd have been less likely to look to move.

What I would say is that, as an example, research has put the cost of Brexit on household food bills in the last 2 years as around £6billion so something that effects the vast majority of people. It has been argued that covid and the war in Ukraine are the reasons for this and other economic challenges. Undoubtedly it is hard to disaggregate all that is going on in the world, but the research has taken that into account and how do you explain that of the major economies ours is the only one predicted to shrink rather than grow in the coming year and that includes a Russia which is the target of specific sanctions intended to harm it's economy. You could argue it's the incompetence of our government but I would say that in itself is directly related to the issue of Brexit within the Conservative paty.

I didn't have an ideological dog in the Brexit fight. I voted remain because whilst I could find rational information about the costs and risks of leaving I could find little equivalent information about the potential benefits of exiting. So though I have my own misgivings about the EU I was in a position where I was being asked to vote for something that had a cost to it but with no reasonably quantifiable benefits which didn't make sense to me. I am still interested to understand what people who still consider it a good idea believe to be beneficial about it both now and in the mid to long term so if you want to share your thoughts on that I would be interested.

Thank you for your considered reply. I fully accept your reasons for voting remain. I went through the same thought process and came to the conclusion that leaving would be better. That difference of opinion is why a referendum was deemed necessary? As for my reasons, I answered a question for my top 10 reasons/benefits of leaving a few weeks ago on here. Which is why I have asked the same from remainers!

 

[Palerider]

If things around you are affected then of course you are affected , I haven’t needed hospital treatment or a care home yet does that mean I’m not affected? What if I need one tomorrow can I say it had affected me then. It’s affecting my mum at the moment am I allowed to include that as an affect on me ?
Or are we all just being self centred about it.

The idea that the NHS and social care has collapsed because of brexit is ludicrous. I'm 64 and everything is affected by inflation but inflation tends to go up every year whether we are in the EU or not. So why has the part of inflation caused by brexit so different to inflation caused by any other government decision. What I am trying to understand is why the vitriol?

 

[blueparrot]

The idea that the NHS and social care has collapsed because of brexit is ludicrous. I'm 64 and everything is affected by inflation but inflation tends to go up every year whether we are in the EU or not. So why has the part of inflation caused by brexit so different to inflation caused by any other government decision. What I am trying to understand is why the vitriol?

The NHS is in danger of collapsing because of underfunding but made far worse because of chronic staff shortages and bed blocking, bed blocking caused by staff shortages in the care system. These shortages are directly because staff have returned to the EU and it is impossible to recruit quickly and without masses of paperwork from the EU.
My daughter is a hospital physio and she has patients that should be sent home for rehab or in some cases are dying and want to die at home that can’t be sent home because the carers aren’t there anymore, blocking beds in already understaffed wards.
That is a direct and devastating affect on everyone of Brexit. Yes funding and the pandemic have some impact on it but it’s far worse than it should be and thats down to Brexit. Like I said before though it’s an affect that could be fixed quite easily if the government wanted it to be. So support Brexit if you like, but please don’t support this Brexit and this governments attitude to Brexit.

 

[BrianW]

I'll give you one that does impact upon me directly.

I used to be able to buy stuff directly from a shop in France or Germany with no more difficulty than buying from one in London. Now, if you can get one to deal with you at all, there are all sorts of extra payments to be made, plus delays in transit.

This is a fucking ballache and no one can ever persuade me that the new alternative is in any way better.

Number 2. If I decide to emigrate for retirement in (say) Spain, there are now 1001 formalities that apply. I have to fulfil various criteria, and ultimately it is not my decision, it is theirs. This is very definitely a change for the worse.

Number 3. If I want to visit the EU there are strict limitations on how long I can stay. There did not use to be, as long as I maintained myself there. Within 12 months and at a cost, I shall also need a fucking visa, like as if I was going to the old USSR. Before it was a right, now it is a privilege that can be withdrawn at any time.

There's three, straight off, without even thinking. Now, what three advantages have I got in return? The square root of fuck all, that's what.

 

[BrianW]

Number 4. I really valued being a Citizen of Europe. That has been stolen from me.

Number 5, I value my Human Rights. Although it is not directly linked to Brexit, the Brexit scum wants to leave the ECHR, therefore stealing my Human Rights and putting me on the same ghastly level as an inhabitant of Belarus or Russia. Gee, thanks! And no I do not trust the Tories or our corrupt political system with this issue.

Number 6, I no longer have a right to vote in elections for the European Parliament, the only institution elected on a fair basis. I now only have a vote for the corrupt UK Parliament, in a system where a minority can vote in a majority government.

 

[BrianW]

Number 7. The EU was a bulwark against the curse of Yankee libertarianism which is creeping into our politics and which is the enemy of all that is decent and good. I literally prefer fascists to libertarians, as at least fascism has a rational structure for the state, however obnoxious its policies may be.

Number 8. I am culturally European. As this country has been, time out of mind. It is far more rational for us to be linked politically to Europe than to any other bloc. And no, we are not big or rich enough to survive as an outcast, at least not while preserving any sort of standard of living.

 

[Palerider]

Here’s some personally experienced:

1. More expensive flights (on top of pandemic and fuel related issues) and less routes
2. Roaming charges in some countries.
3. Huge queues for Eurostar.
4. 20 hour wait in A&E due to understaffing because of EU workers having gone home
5. Huge queues at Madrid passport control whilst EU lanes were empty.
6. Less choice of produce in supermarket. Some products regularly missing.
7. Much more expensive to visit USA due to effect on pound dollar exchange rate.
8. Long delay and additional cost to item purchased online from EU.

All fairly trivial compared to the issues faced by exporters, importers, the NHS, students, musicians, farming, fishing, aviation, manufacturers, food producers and practically every segment of the economy that deals with Europe.

Now let’s have your top few benefits that affect you personally. Not that daft list of abstract bullshit that you posted last time.

By the way, the only people whining are the idiot Brexiteers blaming Remainers for the fact it’s not working rather than taking ownership of the shit you inflicted on us all.

I'm sorry everyone, too many posts to reply to individually. But I had to reply to this one.
What part of my 'abstract bullshit' did you not like? The part where i say I think 'the EU is a middle class con job'. How many trips abroad do you make? Have you heard of the climate crisis? I think when you state 'fairly trivial' you might be being a little kind to yourself. In fairness though, I fully accept that those things however trivial have affected your lifestyle and that you have answered my question. Whether that is enough to merit the continuous vitriol aimed at people who voted brexit I suppose we will have to differ. Just on point 8 though, I bought a boiler part from Holland and it was here within a couple of days, no problem at all.

 

[blueparrot]

Maybe for eu doctors, but it’s not impossible to recruit doctors quickly from outside the eu. I work in the health sector and we are hiring huge amounts of doctors from places like India and Nigeria every week. As long as they pass their exams/ are qualified it’s relatively easy to bring them into the country.

I’m not saying reduced eu numbers isn’t having an effect by the way because it clearly is.

Doctors I couldn't say. I'm talking more about care workers and nurses. I'm sure doctors have a lot less issues as they will easily pass the points system I'm guessing.

 

[BrianW]

Number 9. Brexit encouraged the sort of vile, flag-waving nationalists and racists that belong in the gutter of the 1930s. This is not to call all Brexit voters such, only to state that Brexit brought such vermin out from under their stones.

 

[BrianW]

Number 10: "Answer not a fool according to his folly, lest thou also be like unto him." — Proverbs 26:4

 

[Palerider]

Number 7. The EU was a bulwark against the curse of Yankee libertarianism which is creeping into our politics and which is the enemy of all that is decent and good. I literally prefer fascists to libertarians, as at least fascism has a rational structure for the state, however obnoxious its policies may be.

Number 8. I am culturally European. As this country has been, time out of mind. It is far more rational for us to be linked politically to Europe than to any other bloc. And no, we are not big or rich enough to survive as an outcast, at least not while preserving any sort of standard of living.

I've no problem with Europe or Europeans. I just do not want currently to be a part of a European political project. Surely it cannot be right that the power in a fair political project is held by those with the biggest purse strings? That's back to the middle ages.

 

[Elbow beards]

I've no problem with Europe or Europeans. I just do not want currently to be a part of a European political project. Surely it cannot be right that the power in a fair political project is held by those with the biggest purse strings? That's back to the middle ages.

As opposed to being ruled by a wealthy few, from a privately educated background, backed up by a group of unelected wealthy individuals and heads of church. That sounds like the middle ages.