Shamima Begum

[dronefromsector7G]

Usual teenage search for identity. There was a study (sorry can't remember the details to cite properly) done in the midlands in 2006 that found loads of young Muslim men spouting all the death to the west stuff and dressing like Mujahedeen. Nothing came of it - no different to young black men bollocking on about guns and bitches or white lads turning into Ali G until they find themselves. Kids being kids, although admittedly begum went further due to online grooming.

I didn’t pretend to be Ali G. I did the death to the West thing mind

 

[Mr Kobayashi]

Small note but married in Syria at 15. Legal age of consent in Syria is 15 so no statutory rape. You can’t force British laws on to other jurisdictions in the same way we don’t lock people up in the U.K. for buying weed when they’re in Amsterdam.

Was she married to a Syrian or legal resident of Syria or in territory under control of the Syrian government?

How do you know she wasn't coerced rather than it being "statutory rape"? Considering how ISIS treat women in general, I'd say it was more than likely.

We already do apply sexual offences laws beyond our territory.

Grooming.

The offence will be committed if an adult has met or communicated with a child under 16, intentionally travels to meet the child or has the child travel to meet them, anywhere in the world with the intention of doing something to the child which will involve a relevant offence.

 

[Mazzarelli's Swiss Cheese]

Small note but married in Syria at 15. Legal age of consent in Syria is 15 so no statutory rape. You can’t force British laws on to other jurisdictions in the same way we don’t lock people up in the U.K. for buying weed when they’re in Amsterdam. Another example would be like Americans saying a 17 year old was (statutory) raped in the U.K. if they had consensual sex there as it’s below their age of consent.

As I said, we let Gary glitter back in....

 

[west didsblue]

Only if you start hanging out with terrorists and saying you don't have a issue with people's heads getting lobbed off . If you don't do any of the above then you should be OK. Probably a good idea to stay away from Syria also .

You must have a lot of faith in politicians if you don’t think that the right to appeal to a court against an incorrectly applied order is something you don’t need.

 

[Mazzarelli's Swiss Cheese]

You must have a lot of faith in politicians if you don’t think that the right to appeal to a court against an incorrectly applied order is something you don’t need.

To be fair, the court didn't actually deny her return to the UK or revoke citizenship. The court judged that the final decision lay with the home secretary who did both.

 

[west didsblue]

To be fair, the court didn't actually deny her return to the UK or revoke citizenship. The court judged that the final decision lay with the home secretary who did both.

Exactly my point. The court made a judgment that UK law as it stands allows the Home Secretary to make the final decision herself for whatever reasons she sees fit, and the courts have no jurisdiction to overturn any decision made even if it breaks international law. That’s the problem.

The next problem is that the Home Secretary wants to remove the UK from the jurisdiction of the ECHR so that breaches of international law can’t be challenged.

 

[gordondaviesmoustache]

This bogeyman?

During an interview, Ms Begum was asked if she knew about the beheadings and executions carried out by the Islamic State.

She responded: “Yeah, I knew about those things and I was okay with it. Because, you know, I started becoming religious just before I left.

“From what I heard, Islamically that is all allowed. So I was okay with it.”

In an interview with The Times earlier this month, Ms Begum had spoken of seeing “beheaded heads” in bins, but admitted it “did not faze her.”

Sounds completely fucking normal to me, get her a council house in Oldham....

Or is the above made up bullshit to tar the girl's reputation?

She is clearly thick as fuck. The notion that she could conspire to open a tin of beans is fucking comical.

 

[Mr Kobayashi]

She is clearly thick as fuck. The notion that she could conspire to open a tin of beans is fucking comical.

Ironically some of her most outspoken critics are far more effective at radicalising people to extreme views and far more dangerous.

But do so legally in the press and broadcast media. Nigel Farage and Alison Pearson being two notable examples.

I'm sick of hearing about this unremarkable idiot.

She should either be tried and face the relevant sentence if found guilty or given an opportunity to get on with her life. The former is the preferred option but if we can't be arsed to that then we ought to do the latter.

 

[Bluemanc100]

Ironically some of her most outspoken critics are far more effective at radicalising people to extreme views and far more dangerous.

But do so legally in the press and broadcast media. Nigel Farage and Alison Pearson being two notable examples.

I'm sick of hearing about this unremarkable idiot.

She should either be tried and face the relevant sentence if found guilty or given an opportunity to get on with her life. The former is the preferred option but if we can't be arsed to that then we ought to do the latter.

She is being given an opportunity to get on with her life… She continues to appeal the UK govt decision and therefore she’s in the public eye .. She’s surely found herself a nice tent in the camp by now to lay down roots

 

[Bluemanc100]

15 yr old groomed online, trafficked, abused, married (at 15) therefore raped and lost three infant children. No actual evidence she was involved in any criminal activity (as a minor) yet she loses citizenship and can't return. Gary glitter meanwhile has raped multiple kids and returns to the UK.
Pure political grandstanding by the govt/home secretary, although I'll caveat that by saying the security services may have further concerns which are not public I suppose. If she was white and called Wendy she'd be back home imho. This is just about setting an example. If it serves to deter others and keep me and my country safe then fair enough, but morally it is totally wrong.

A member of my wife’s family was pregnant at 15 while she was in a relationship with a lad of around 20 despite her parents trying to get her away from the lad. They went to the police about her being under the age of consent and were told that if it was “consentual sex” then there was no case to answer as they were in a recognised relationship… So your comments about rape would appear to be bollocks according to Cheshire Police

 

[Mazzarelli's Swiss Cheese]

A member of my wife’s family was pregnant at 15 while she was in a relationship with a lad of around 20 despite her parents trying to get her away from the lad. They went to the police about her being under the age of consent and were told that if it was “consentual sex” then there was no case to answer as they were in a recognised relationship… So your comments about rape would appear to be bollocks according to Cheshire Police

There is a difference between something being legal, and something being illegal but the police deciding not to press charges. It would appear Cheshire police decided to use their discretion in the case you describe, but knocking up 15 yr olds is still very much a sexual offence under UK law.

 

[Bluemanc100]

There is a difference between something being legal, and something being illegal but the police deciding not to press charges. It would appear Cheshire police decided to use their discretion in the case you describe, but knocking up 15 yr olds is still very much a sexual offence under UK law.

Would you care to explain why the police chose not to prosecute when the girl’s parents wanted the lad charging? He went on to father a child with another young girl “in a relationship” which makes the situation laughable (unless you’re the parent)

 

[Mazzarelli's Swiss Cheese]

Would you care to explain why the police chose not to prosecute when the girl’s parents wanted the lad charging? He went on to father a child with another young girl “in a relationship” which makes the situation laughable (unless you’re the parent)

A question only they can answer mate, but my guess is they listened to what the girl had to say and ignored the parents.

 

[Bluemanc100]

A question only they can answer mate, but my guess is they listened to what the girl had to say and ignored the parents.

I agree which makes the suggestion that a 15 year old girl can’t be held accountable for her lifestyle and sexual choices a bit of a joke

Let the **** rot where she is

 

[Mazzarelli's Swiss Cheese]

I agree which makes the suggestion that a 15 year old girl can’t be held accountable for her lifestyle and sexual choices a bit of a joke

Let the **** rot where she is

You just twisted that from holding the male accountable to holding the female accountable. The fact is begum was groomed, trafficked, and abused. Part of the grooming process of course is to normalise the trafficking and abuse to gain her consent.

Unless there is stuff the security services/ home secretary are privy to that the public is not, then she's simply being made an example of and what we are doing is wrong.

Any arguments I've heard to keep her out of the UK so far seem to be based on fear, hatred and low level Islamophbia. All strong emotions but not a justification morally or legally.

 

[East Level 2]

She is clearly thick as fuck. The notion that she could conspire to open a tin of beans is fucking comical.

She might manage if it's a ring-pull, but would struggle using a tin opener.

 

[gordondaviesmoustache]

A member of my wife’s family was pregnant at 15 while she was in a relationship with a lad of around 20 despite her parents trying to get her away from the lad. They went to the police about her being under the age of consent and were told that if it was “consentual sex” then there was no case to answer as they were in a recognised relationship… So your comments about rape would appear to be bollocks according to Cheshire Police

It’s not rape to have sex with a fifteen year old when consent is present, but it’s 100% the offence of sexual activity with a child, irrespective of the presence of consent. It’s only if the victim is under 13 does it automatically become rape via a necessary legal fiction because legally someone of that age is deemed incapable of giving consent.

Sexual activity with a child is the offence Adam Johnson was convicted of for fingering a 15 year old (with consent) and it carries a maximum sentence of fourteen years imprisonment.

So what Cheshire Police told them about rape is correct, but based on what you’ve described a very serious offence has been committed, and there is no good reason why the 20 year old wasn’t arrested on suspicion of that offence. Difficult to imagine Cheshire Old Bill not being aware of that. Seems like a bizarre exchange tbh.

 

[Bluemanc100]

You just twisted that from holding the male accountable to holding the female accountable. The fact is begum was groomed, trafficked, and abused. Part of the grooming process of course is to normalise the trafficking and abuse to gain her consent.

Unless there is stuff the security services/ home secretary are privy to that the public is not, then she's simply being made an example of and what we are doing is wrong.

Any arguments I've heard to keep her out of the UK so far seem to be based on fear, hatred and low level Islamophbia. All strong emotions but not a justification morally or legally.

Edit:

If “low level Islamaphobia” includes being uncomfortable that these people are blasé about infidels being beheaded because that’s normal under the laws of Islam then count me in..

 

[Chris in London]

She is clearly thick as fuck. The notion that she could conspire to open a tin of beans is fucking comical.

And yet this thick as fuck unremarkable idiot managed to persuade the police and her school she was at low level risk of being radicalised, managed to get through Gatwick Airport on a stolen passport that allowed her to pass as the adult responsible for two other minors and managed to find her way from Istanbul to the Syrian border.

Quite a few people in places of authority have got some explaining to do.

 

[gordondaviesmoustache]

I'm sick of hearing about this unremarkable idiot.

She should either be tried and face the relevant sentence if found guilty or given an opportunity to get on with her life. The former is the preferred option but if we can't be arsed to that then we ought to do the latter.

It’s more a little bit sad that people are frightened of someone who is probably educationally subnormal and wouldn’t be capable of organising a coffee morning, never mind a terrorist master plan.