Pollution in our rivers.

Saddleworth2 said:
The billions (yes billions) of profits they make.
Click to expand...
This is a key factor in the industry. Income from consumers comes in a slow trickle but major investments need to be paid for, some up front and the rest in big tranches.
Do you know what the ROCE is in the industry? Is it enough to pay the interest on loans?
The latest environmental Act gives the companies an absolute duty to improve quality. Your bill will rise to meet the obligation. When people talk about the price of utilities, they never relate it to the need to raise large amounts of capital. They want lower prices but improved quality. They are not so keen on paying for it. The structure of electricity prices for example is heavily weighted against industry because consumers have votes but companies don’t.
No wonder our steel industry struggles to pay five times the price of energy that our competitor countries pay.
The current gov intends to reverse this bias over the next few years: wait for the howls of anguish as consumers find their bills rising.
 
KS55 said:
This is a key factor in the industry. Income from consumers comes in a slow trickle but major investments need to be paid for, some up front and the rest in big tranches.
Do you know what the ROCE is in the industry? Is it enough to pay the interest on loans?
The latest environmental Act gives the companies an absolute duty to improve quality. Your bill will rise to meet the obligation. When people talk about the price of utilities, they never relate it to the need to raise large amounts of capital. They want lower prices but improved quality. They are not so keen on paying for it. The structure of electricity prices for example is heavily weighted against industry because consumers have votes but companies don’t.
No wonder our steel industry struggles to pay five times the price of energy that our competitor countries pay.
The current gov intends to reverse this bias over the next few years: wait for the howls of anguish as consumers find their bills rising.
Click to expand...
And just what have they been investing in for the last few decades other than dividends for their shareholders? They took on the responsibility for improving environmental standards when privatisation happened. These obligations don’t go away. I cannot fucking believe that any right minded person would seek to defend what they are doing and the government are allowing. We will all be dead before we see rivers back to their natural health.

edit. Roce eh? You mean their return on capital? You know what, I dont give a flying fuck. It is their responsibility to deliver what they have signed up to.
 
KS55 said:
This is a key factor in the industry. Income from consumers comes in a slow trickle but major investments need to be paid for, some up front and the rest in big tranches.
Do you know what the ROCE is in the industry? Is it enough to pay the interest on loans?
The latest environmental Act gives the companies an absolute duty to improve quality. Your bill will rise to meet the obligation. When people talk about the price of utilities, they never relate it to the need to raise large amounts of capital. They want lower prices but improved quality. They are not so keen on paying for it. The structure of electricity prices for example is heavily weighted against industry because consumers have votes but companies don’t.
No wonder our steel industry struggles to pay five times the price of energy that our competitor countries pay.
The current gov intends to reverse this bias over the next few years: wait for the howls of anguish as consumers find their bills rising.
Click to expand...
From the FT

Britain’s water and sewage companies have slashed investment in critical infrastructure by up to a fifth in the 30 years since they were privatised, according to new research that will stoke criticism over pollution and service failures. Total spending on important infrastructure, which hit a post-privatisation peak of £5.7bn a year between 1991 and 1999, fell by 15 per cent to £4.8bn between 2020 and 2021, according to a Financial Times analysis of the accounts of the 10 largest providers in England and Wales. The decline was most extreme for wastewater and sewage networks. Investment there has fallen by almost a fifth, from £2.9bn a year in the 1990s to £2.4bn now, according to separate data from the financial regulator, Ofwat, received through freedom of information requests by the Windrush Against Sewage Pollution campaign group. The details of the extent of spending cuts will increase pressure on water companies, which are already facing an outpouring of anger, including customers withholding bills in protest at the repeated dumping of sewage into Britain’s seas and rivers. The reductions have come despite a 31 per cent real-term increase in water bills since the 1990s — an average of £100 a year per household — and £72bn in dividend payments to parent companies and investors including private equity, sovereign wealth and pension funds in the same period.

by the by. Over 70% ownership is foreign. No wonder they don’t mind shitting on us. It’s not their doorstep after all.
 
Saddleworth2 said:
From the FT

Britain’s water and sewage companies have slashed investment in critical infrastructure by up to a fifth in the 30 years since they were privatised, according to new research that will stoke criticism over pollution and service failures. Total spending on important infrastructure, which hit a post-privatisation peak of £5.7bn a year between 1991 and 1999, fell by 15 per cent to £4.8bn between 2020 and 2021, according to a Financial Times analysis of the accounts of the 10 largest providers in England and Wales. The decline was most extreme for wastewater and sewage networks. Investment there has fallen by almost a fifth, from £2.9bn a year in the 1990s to £2.4bn now, according to separate data from the financial regulator, Ofwat, received through freedom of information requests by the Windrush Against Sewage Pollution campaign group. The details of the extent of spending cuts will increase pressure on water companies, which are already facing an outpouring of anger, including customers withholding bills in protest at the repeated dumping of sewage into Britain’s seas and rivers. The reductions have come despite a 31 per cent real-term increase in water bills since the 1990s — an average of £100 a year per household — and £72bn in dividend payments to parent companies and investors including private equity, sovereign wealth and pension funds in the same period.

by the by. Over 70% ownership is foreign. No wonder they don’t mind shitting on us. It’s not their doorstep after all.
Click to expand...
And yet and yet, Ofwat is currently investigating the balance sheets as the water industry has massive debts and there are risks that some cannot maintain the service. Some have had capital injections in the last year and two have made a call on investors who have had to put more in. Yorkshire and Thames are in dire financial states.
The original model is failing and I would wager that the reduction in investment is more about finance than the business need.
 
Saddleworth2 said:
And just what have they been investing in for the last few decades other than dividends for their shareholders? They took on the responsibility for improving environmental standards when privatisation happened. These obligations don’t go away. I cannot fucking believe that any right minded person would seek to defend what they are doing and the government are allowing. We will all be dead before we see rivers back to their natural health.

edit. Roce eh? You mean their return on capital? You know what, I dont give a flying fuck. It is their responsibility to deliver what they have signed up to.
Click to expand...
It makes no sense to quote raw profit figures without the return. So far, they have delivered what they signed up to, but the requirement is too low because the debts are too high. Both Ofwat and successive govs have neglected the long term. Sewerage gets almost 50% of the total investment.
You should give your flying fuck, no doubt you will when your water co goes bust and your bill doubles.
Finance is king and that was the real business case for privatisation.
 
Absolute twats the lot of them. Not only are they investing less and charging us more, the number of households has increased significantly over time as well (by 4M to 28M since the mid nineties). So they are charging even more of us more individually. They are allowed to dump some sewage during extreme rainfall when the system is at capacity, but they are routinely dumping sewage at other times simply because it's cheaper than properly treating it. The government needs to get control of the situation but unfortunately it seems they are in the back pockets of the water companies as well.
 
Saddleworth2 said:
No they absolutely haven’t. Are you blind to th3 illegal discharge?
Click to expand...
No, not blind but you seem not to understand how it works.
1. Each Company submits a 5 year plan to Ofwat.
2. Targets for some key issues like leakage and discharge, or capital investment are agreed.
3. Those targets are what they sign up to (not some politicians rants) and they generally meet them.
Fines for non compliance with Environment Agency are at a record, so there is a long way to go, but water companies are not responsible for flooding which is the root cause of discharges. If you have an argument, it is with Ofwat and the Environment Agency. Did you know that Ofwat benchmark capital spending plans and often reduce the companies’ requirement? Every time a local authority gives planning permission for houses to be built on the flood plain, the downstream effect is flooding and sewage discharges. Blame the water company!
On all these public utility problems there is plenty of emotional talk but little realism. For example, I have lost count of the number of times I have read calls for re-nationalisation of water. No-one ever mentions the cost, estimated by Moodys at £15 billion plus taking on a debt of £50 billion. Will you pay your share of that willingly? (About £250 per head, equates to £1000 for an average family of 2 adults and 2 children and the debt would still be extant.) 83% of the public want privatisation, I wonder what the support for it would be, when they had to fork out for it.
The companies have done some crafty financial engineering to maximise the divi paid (often to their own foreign owners) and that should be condemned but it makes no sense to call for action without stating the cost.
Rant over!
Note: I have never worked in the water industry, but it seems to me that it is a convenient Aunt Sally for politicians to cover their own failings. The Labour Party says it will nationalise water; I bet they don’t.
 
Last edited:
Cheer Up Peter Reid said:
Absolute twats the lot of them. Not only are they investing less and charging us more, the number of households has increased significantly over time as well (by 4M to 28M since the mid nineties). So they are charging even more of us more individually. They are allowed to dump some sewage during extreme rainfall when the system is at capacity, but they are routinely dumping sewage at other times simply because it's cheaper than properly treating it. The government needs to get control of the situation but unfortunately it seems they are in the back pockets of the water companies as well.
Click to expand...
Instead of being in the back pocket of water companies, how about “they are ignorant and stupid and don’t really care” ?
 
KS55 said:
No, not blind but you seem not to understand how it works.
1. Each Company submits a 5 year plan to Ofwat.
2. Targets for some key issues like leakage and discharge, or capital investment are agreed.
3. Those targets are what they sign up to (not some politicians rants) and they generally meet them.
Fines for non compliance with Environment Agency are at a record, so there is a long way to go, but water companies are not responsible for flooding which is the root cause of discharges. If you have an argument, it is with Ofwat and the Environment Agency. Did you know that Ofwat benchmark capital spending plans and often reduce the companies’ requirement? Every time a local authority gives planning permission for houses to be built on the flood plain, the downstream effect is flooding and sewage discharges. Blame the water company!
On all these public utility problems there is plenty of emotional talk but little realism. For example, I have lost count of the number of times I have read calls for re-nationalisation of water. No-one ever mentions the cost, estimated by Moodys at £15 billion plus taking on a debt of £50 billion. Will you pay your share of that willingly? (About £250 per head, equates to £1000 for an average family of 2 adults and 2 children and the debt would still be extant.) 83% of the public want privatisation, I wonder what the support for it would be, when they had to fork out for it.
The companies have done some crafty financial engineering to maximise the divi paid (often to their own foreign owners) and that should be condemned but it makes no sense to call for action without stating the cost.
Rant over!
Note: I have never worked in the water industry, but it seems to me that it is a convenient Aunt Sally for politicians to cover their own failings. The Labour Party says it will nationalise water; I bet they don’t.
Click to expand...
Whilst I am sure there is fact in what you say, I think you are as blinded one way as I am the other :-)
To be clear. I don’t just blame the water companies. I blame the model, which I have always thought was obscene, the government who have allowed this to happen and increasingly underfunds the regulator particularly EA. The regulator is nowhere near strong enough in prosecuting blatant breaches. Then finally the water companies some of which are far worse than others. Does Southern Water still have its 1 out of 4 rating? Does it still discharge raw sewage into the Whitstable oyster beds?
So whilst I may be guilty of underplaying the financial side. You are as guilty of ignoring the very serious environmental damage being done.
And as for paying for water to be renationalised, having just forked out £2k for my last energy bill, where do I sign up?

You may feel I am too emotional about this and in some respects you are right. I live in Scotland so as you will know we have a public owned model which is far from perfect but still sees our waterways far less polluted. However I have fished English rivers, reservoirs and lakes most of my life and they are in my opinion some of the most precious places on earth.

One final word. The water companies do not just discharge raw sewage in storm conditions which is what legislation allows. Some of them do it as a matter of course because it is cheaper than treating the sewage. These are not one off incidents. They are 1000s and 1000s. That is factually verified by the regulator. Surely we can find some common ground and agree that practice should stop immediately.
 
Saddleworth2 said:
Whilst I am sure there is fact in what you say, I think you are as blinded one way as I am the other :-)
To be clear. I don’t just blame the water companies. I blame the model, which I have always thought was obscene, the government who have allowed this to happen and increasingly underfunds the regulator particularly EA. The regulator is nowhere near strong enough in prosecuting blatant breaches. Then finally the water companies some of which are far worse than others. Does Southern Water still have its 1 out of 4 rating? Does it still discharge raw sewage into the Whitstable oyster beds?
So whilst I may be guilty of underplaying the financial side. You are as guilty of ignoring the very serious environmental damage being done.
And as for paying for water to be renationalised, having just forked out £2k for my last energy bill, where do I sign up?

You may feel I am too emotional about this and in some respects you are right. I live in Scotland so as you will know we have a public owned model which is far from perfect but still sees our waterways far less polluted. However I have fished English rivers, reservoirs and lakes most of my life and they are in my opinion some of the most precious places on earth.

One final word. The water companies do not just discharge raw sewage in storm conditions which is what legislation allows. Some of them do it as a matter of course because it is cheaper than treating the sewage. These are not one off incidents. They are 1000s and 1000s. That is factually verified by the regulator. Surely we can find some common ground and agree that practice should stop immediately.
Click to expand...
I agree with most of what you say about the environmental issues, but I was writing about the finances to balance out phrases used like ‘billions of profits‘ but with no numbers! I suspect that there are rather less deliberate discharges for profit reasons than careless ones and ones caused by lack of investment as Thames recently admitted. Which brings us full circle.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Unread Posts

Don't have an account? Register now and see fewer ads!

SIGN UP
Back
Top