The BBC | Tim Davie resigns as Director General over Trump documentary edit (p 187)

[Mr Kobayashi]

Tim Davie has to go too.

 

[BobKowalski]

No, you need to improve your comprehension skills. What is said was, and I quote “I’m not saying that this kind of comparison can never be done”. If a holocaust survivor sees a connection based on their experience then they obviously have more leeway than someone like Lineker who does not have that background.

Likewise, it is understandable that a holocaust survivor would be prone to over sensitivity to such issues, and that their judgement might be skewed by that, as all of our judgements are informed by our life experiences. I think they have every right to talk about their experiences, I don’t think that same right extends to those who never suffered the same fate. It doesn’t mean they are right, of course.

That‘s big of you. I’m sure a Holocaust survivor would be gratified they have your blessing to reference their experiences, even if they, as you so charmingly put it, will have their ‘judgement skewed‘ by that experience. By this you mean their judgment is ‘unreliable’.

I could be wrong, but I’m starting to get a certain vibe from your posts…

 

[mattcity5]

The thread title...

The Tories are fighting to remain in power, but also fighting to make things as difficult as possible for Labour, should they lose the next GE. As such, they are filling the Lords with extra people on their side, also putting Tories in charge of anything they can, while changing laws and making it harder for certain demographics to vote. They have Tories running the BBC and wanted to sell off C4 because they have programs which sometimes criticise the leadership.

All meanwhile coming up with some policies that are very far right. They're doing this to reposition what is classed as centrist further to the right - as a result Labour also move further right. It's a dangerous situation overall.

 

[Big Joe Corrigan]

 

[Chris B]

You mention our current regime is not "immensely evil", however that will only be determined after the fact. They are currently ticking many boxes for what determines a fascist leadership and their lack of care for other human beings would at least make me think of them as "slightly evil" tbh.

For what it's worth, I think all the discussion of what he said and whether he should have is ridiculous. You're a lot more critical of his comment (which matches comments made by actual holocaust survivors) than of comments, policy and behaviour by our government. I can only presume you'd still be standing by them if they were herding unfortunates into camps.

I don’t think I’ve ever stood by the government. They’re not really involved in this, Lineker’s comments just happened to be about them. Lineker is perfectly within his rights to criticise them, subject to his agreements with the BBC. I just think people shouldn’t invoke the evils of nazism lightly, which is what Lineker did in my opinion. Trivialising the holocaust is antisemitic. Lineker should probably find better comparisons in future.

Millions died in the holocaust due to direct murder by the state. If you seriously think the current government actions around immigration are similar to that, or look like they’re leading to that, then you lack a sense of proportion.

 

[mexico1970]

I don’t think I’ve ever stood by the government. They’re not really involved in this, Lineker’s comments just happened to be about them. Lineker is perfectly within his rights to criticise them, subject to his agreements with the BBC. I just think people shouldn’t invoke the evils of nazism lightly, which is what Lineker did in my opinion. Trivialising the holocaust is antisemitic. Lineker should probably find better comparisons in future.

Millions died in the holocaust due to direct murder by the state. If you seriously think the current government actions around immigration are similar to that, or look like they’re leading to that, then you lack a sense of proportion.

When someone tells you that you would stand by while people are herded into camps you would be inclined to think that making any point other than giving them oxygen is fruitless.

 

[Champions Again Ole Ole]

It's funny to see that the people who say its shit without commentary etc are the same people who say they watch the game in mute when X commentator is on

 

[blueparrot]

I don’t think I’ve ever stood by the government. They’re not really involved in this, Lineker’s comments just happened to be about them. Lineker is perfectly within his rights to criticise them, subject to his agreements with the BBC. I just think people shouldn’t invoke the evils of nazism lightly, which is what Lineker did in my opinion. Trivialising the holocaust is antisemitic. Lineker should probably find better comparisons in future.

Millions died in the holocaust due to direct murder by the state. If you seriously think the current government actions around immigration are similar to that, or look like they’re leading to that, then you lack a sense of proportion.

Nobody did ,you know they didn't. So why make it about something that it isn't, why the diversion from the real story ?

 

[mattcity5]

I don’t think I’ve ever stood by the government. They’re not really involved in this, Lineker’s comments just happened to be about them. Lineker is perfectly within his rights to criticise them, subject to his agreements with the BBC. I just think people shouldn’t invoke the evils of nazism lightly, which is what Lineker did in my opinion. Trivialising the holocaust is antisemitic. Lineker should probably find better comparisons in future.

Millions died in the holocaust due to direct murder by the state. If you seriously think the current government actions around immigration are similar to that, or look like they’re leading to that, then you lack a sense of proportion.

Lineker did nothing to trivialise it.

Your last paragraph... It's a bit like people who spent months locked down to avoid COVID then saying that it was all pointless because they didn't catch it. Well they didn't catch it because of lockdown.

You highlight dangers so they can be avoided. Just because you then successfully avoid them doesn't mean the danger didn't exist and wasn't real.

This government is already directly causing suffering to many and doing nothing to help them other than blame everything on asylum seekers and immigrants. If I was an immigrant in this country at present, I'd be very worried about the future and my safety.

 

[Corky]

I think this could allow Michael Barrymore back into the big time. He would be perfect for cheap laughs they look for and pool party 'bants' with Micah.

 

[Chris B]

No he wasn't, it was his whole point. It is similar. Not identical, but similar.

But it’s not similar. There are no death camps or mass murders. We’re not going to have any, it’s not the same situation. The only camp been built is a refugee camp in France using UK tax payers money. The current situation is in no way similar to the evils of Nazi Germany. That is why using it as a comparison is trivialising, and that is why it is offensive.

 

[mackenzie]

Tim Davie has to go too.

Certainly does, it's been a shambles.
And when it comes to "impartiality" they need to get their own house in order before they look anywhere else

 

[mattcity5]

When someone tells you that you would stand by while people are herded into camps you would be inclined to think that making any point other than giving them oxygen is fruitless.

Apologies to @Chris B if my previous comment went a bit far, it probably did.

However, it does seem like the only occasion where you think it will be okay to compare anything to Nazi Germany would be if we have concentration camps and 6m dead. Well, I'd rather highlight the potential dangers before we ever get to that point than sit here 10 years down the line and say, yes we are now like Nazi Germany.

 

[mattcity5]

But it’s not similar. There are no death camps or mass murders. We’re not going to have any, it’s not the same situation. The only camp been built is a refugee camp in France using UK tax payers money. The current situation is in no way similar to the evils of Nazi Germany. That is why using it as a comparison is trivialising, and that is why it is offensive.

The language is similar to that used to enable and normalise hatred of minority groups at that time. That was the first step. The first step of many before you get to 'full blown Nazi Germany'.

 

[west didsblue]

But it’s not similar. There are no death camps or mass murders. We’re not going to have any, it’s not the same situation. The only camp been built is a refugee camp in France using UK tax payers money. The current situation is in no way similar to the evils of Nazi Germany. That is why using it as a comparison is trivialising, and that is why it is offensive.

I think you’re deliberately being obtuse and are ignoring the points that people have repeatedly made because they don’t fit in with your agenda.

 

[Chris B]

This makes absolutely no sense whatsoever.

It makes sense. If you take a very evil event and say it is similar to a normal everyday experience, then you are implying the evil event wasn’t particularly evil.

For instance “Harold Shipman was only like a hospice nurse”, or “people who protest are the same as arena bomber Salman Abedi”. It is offensive to trivialise evil by saying it is similar to something not evil. These statements are not only offensive to hospice nurses or protestors. They are offensive to anyone who understands the evils of the events they are compared to, because they minimise and trivialise those evil actions.

It is offensive to trivialise the holocaust by comparing it to current UK government immigration policy. This is especially true of the Nazi period in Germany, more so than my previous examples, because of the long history of holocaust denial and antisemitism across the world.

 

[Chris B]

The language is similar to that used to enable and normalise hatred of minority groups at that time. That was the first step. The first step of many before you get to 'full blown Nazi Germany'.

Not really though is it. That is an hysterical overreaction.

 

[mattcity5]

Not really though is it. That is an hysterical overreaction.

That's an opinion and I admit we'd only really know maybe 5 years further down the line. Maybe we should wait and see then, that'll no doubt be for the best.

 

[Chris B]

Apologies to @Chris B if my previous comment went a bit far, it probably did.

However, it does seem like the only occasion where you think it will be okay to compare anything to Nazi Germany would be if we have concentration camps and 6m dead. Well, I'd rather highlight the potential dangers before we ever get to that point than sit here 10 years down the line and say, yes we are now like Nazi Germany.

I just don’t see that as a valid comparison. We are so far away from that it is borderline offensive. Not offensive to the government who are big enough to take it, but offensive t i those who suffered.

Overuse of the Nazi warning is weakening it. That overuse is already famously encoded in the form of Godwin’s law. It is counterproductive and wrong to use it in the way Lineker did. It’s not the crime of the century, and not even an actual crime, but it is mildly offensive.

 

[west didsblue]

I just don’t see that as a valid comparison. We are so far away from that it is borderline offensive. Not offensive to the government who are big enough to take it, but offensive t i those who suffered.

Overuse of the Nazi warning is weakening it. That overuse is already famously encoded in the form of Godwin’s law. It is counterproductive and wrong to use it in the way Lineker did. It’s not the crime of the century, and not even an actual crime, but it is mildly offensive.

Are you going to admit your Klopp comparison with Nazi Germany was offensive?