Today's shooting in America thread

[Koniec]

What’s the deal with the youngest one not holding a gun? Is he considered too young?

Visited Tennessee in 2018 with my mate. Did Memphis (shithole), Nashville (completely loved) Chattanooga (loved) and the Jack Daniels distillery (which was very interesting). Loved the place, loved the people we met, but there is a collective insanity in that country where all reason has been abandoned (or never even existed) when it comes to guns. I don’t think there’s any solution, the genie is too far out of the bottle, and all we can do as a society is watch and learn, and make sure we don’t go down the same rabbit hole.

Because once you do, there‘s no turning back.

Too young to hold a gun but certainly young enough to get shot at school.

 

[paulchapo]

What’s the deal with the youngest one not holding a gun? Is he considered too young?

Visited Tennessee in 2018 with my mate. Did Memphis (shithole), Nashville (completely loved) Chattanooga (loved) and the Jack Daniels distillery (which was very interesting). Loved the place, loved the people we met, but there is a collective insanity in that country where all reason has been abandoned (or never even existed) when it comes to guns. I don’t think there’s any solution, the genie is too far out of the bottle, and all we can do as a society is watch and learn, and make sure we don’t go down the same rabbit hole.

Because once you do, there‘s no turning back.

We tend to follow America in a lot of things. Just recently over here guns seem to be being used a little more frequently. Then there is the gang culture, postcode wars etcetera. Some of these things have always been about of course. I remember the huge gang fights between Benchill and Baguely in Wythenshawe in the seventies. The difference back then was knives were never used and certainly no guns, unless you counted the odd air gun. Bottles, bricks, the odd bar and bat, knives were considered cowardly. There was no big drug problem either. The big difference back then is you didn't want to kill someone for stepping on your turf. A bit of a slap or a chase and that was that. I don't see how a pack armed with knives onto one lad is brave or carries any honour or respect they go on about so much. It's a cowards trick.
Guns appear to becoming more available, no idea why but that has to be a big priority for the police.

 

[FogBlueInSanFran]

As is always the case, any chance of a sensible discussion gets lost in comments like “Chimps with guns” and a lack of understanding of America’s birth and the reason for 2A.

If someone has a magic wand and could “magic away” the roughly 350 MILLION guns in the USA. I’d be all for it. Alas…

If somebody could stop the mentally and criminally insane getting their hands on guns. see above.

However, the biggest problem is that The Constitution has a method for changing, or even removing, 2A, but that mechanism doesn’t stand a chance in todays politically supercharged America. ZERO!

You can nibble at the edges, but that would only create more illegality, and guess who doesn’t care about that? Yes, the criminals.

Lastly, mental health is a crisis in America. People like to talk like America is a COUNTRY of rugged individualists. IT AIN’T! America is a country where far too many people live on the ragged edge, and those of you who have ventured outside the megapolises have surely seen it. Watch an episode of Justified or Yellowstone and you see the hinterlands. Watch almost anything filmed outside a large urban area and you see that America, for all its claims of an advanced society, is more 1923 than 2023 in many places.

Sure, there are rigged pockets of life out west, but Nashville, TN? Not a chance…even though many people there still feel a kinship with the rebel South.

“Get rid of all the guns!” Sounds so easy, especially in countries where when the police and pols say it, the masses hop to it. But, that’s not America and never has been.

The level of distrust in authority is a pandemic born of corruption, and was hard earned. Turning that shop around, yo the point of rescinding 2A is simply unimaginable, regardless of how many grieving mothers we get to watch on TV from outside their child’s supposed safe space for education.

We are fucked and it’s not changing anytime soon.

Haven’t met a single gunowner yet who thinks the problem is his fault. That’s why we’re fucked.

We don’t need to “magic away” 350 mm guns. Let’s just start somewhere simple. Let’s start with yours.

If you can’t quit them voluntarily, why should we expect anyone else to?

It’s like a smoker telling me smoking’s bad. Cool, so quit smoking then.

 

[gordondaviesmoustache]

As is always the case, any chance of a sensible discussion gets lost in comments like “Chimps with guns” and a lack of understanding of America’s birth and the reason for 2A.

If someone has a magic wand and could “magic away” the roughly 350 MILLION guns in the USA. I’d be all for it. Alas…

If somebody could stop the mentally and criminally insane getting their hands on guns. see above.

However, the biggest problem is that The Constitution has a method for changing, or even removing, 2A, but that mechanism doesn’t stand a chance in todays politically supercharged America. ZERO!

You can nibble at the edges, but that would only create more illegality, and guess who doesn’t care about that? Yes, the criminals.

Lastly, mental health is a crisis in America. People like to talk like America is a COUNTRY of rugged individualists. IT AIN’T! America is a country where far too many people live on the ragged edge, and those of you who have ventured outside the megapolises have surely seen it. Watch an episode of Justified or Yellowstone and you see the hinterlands. Watch almost anything filmed outside a large urban area and you see that America, for all its claims of an advanced society, is more 1923 than 2023 in many places.

Sure, there are rigged pockets of life out west, but Nashville, TN? Not a chance…even though many people there still feel a kinship with the rebel South.

“Get rid of all the guns!” Sounds so easy, especially in countries where when the police and pols say it, the masses hop to it. But, that’s not America and never has been.

The level of distrust in authority is a pandemic born of corruption, and was hard earned. Turning that shop around, yo the point of rescinding 2A is simply unimaginable, regardless of how many grieving mothers we get to watch on TV from outside their child’s supposed safe space for education.

We are fucked and it’s not changing anytime soon.

I fear you are correct, and that there is no meaningful solution to this problem, but the real problem for you as a society is that the senseless killing is going to get progressively worse to the point where all the things that make America such a great place to live will diminish to a point of insignificance. I can’t see any other pathway.

And if 2A is truly immutable, then I can see no possible long term outcome, if that tragic path is traveled, other than some States eventually seceding from the Union. Some people, in some States (on each coast) will eventually say ‘enough is enough’.

I must confess I find the evangelical and slavish adherence to 2A to be nothing short of bizarre. Its wording is plainly anachronistic and incongruous with modern legislature. It expressly mentions regulation and yet its fiercest acolytes are inimical to any associated meaningful regulation. It seems an utterly absurd thing to build your belief system around, but as you say it’s not going anywhere, and any moves to do so would be met with widespread and violent civil disobedience.

Sadly I think it will eventually be the downfall of US society, and there’s nothing anyone can do about it, other than watch in horror.

 

[daveiw01]

I grew up in sunny old England. I witnessed more poverty, crime, violence than I have ever experienced here. I do live the American Dream, it's a crazy, wonderful experience.....some innocents get hurt in the process

Wow, what a terrible response, just dismissing their needless deaths, just like that! Welcome to my ignore list.

 

[Koniec]

Sadly I think it will eventually be the downfall of US society, and there’s nothing anyone can do about it, other than watch in horror.

I think we are witnessing the demise of the union. There seems to be too big a division. “All political unions eventually collapse”. Texas is a country in its own right, Cali could go it alone. The stupid thing is the people who claim to love the US the most are the ones doing the damage.

 

[gordondaviesmoustache]

We tend to follow America in a lot of things. Just recently over here guns seem to be being used a little more frequently. Then there is the gang culture, postcode wars etcetera. Some of these things have always been about of course. I remember the huge gang fights between Benchill and Baguely in Wythenshawe in the seventies. The difference back then was knives were never used and certainly no guns, unless you counted the odd air gun. Bottles, bricks, the odd bar and bat, knives were considered cowardly. There was no big drug problem either. The big difference back then is you didn't want to kill someone for stepping on your turf. A bit of a slap or a chase and that was that. I don't see how a pack armed with knives onto one lad is brave or carries any honour or respect they go on about so much. It's a cowards trick.
Guns appear to becoming more available, no idea why but that has to be a big priority for the police.

Don’t agree with you there about guns mate, and tbf to some extent I’m at the front line in that regard. I would say gun use has been pretty steady over the last five years. Moreover their use is principally restricted to inter-OCG turf wars. Our gun laws are (rightly) draconian and harsh and I would say that a lid is kept on gun use, to a reasonably rigid degree. They are controlled to a hugely worthwhile extent. Long may it continue.

Sadly the same cannot be said about knife crime, which is far more widespread and certainly on the increase. It could be said to be out of control, or certainly approaching that. Carrying knives among certain demographics has become routine, lamentably. This is far harder to regulate and control (for obvious reasons) than guns and the law and punishment here certainly needs looking at.

Losing a child to a fatal wounding can’t be any less tragic that losing one to a gunshot wound.

 

[FogBlueInSanFran]

I fear you are correct, and that there is no meaningful solution to this problem, but the real problem for you as a society is that the senseless killing is going to get progressively worse to the point where all the things that make America such a great place to live will diminish to a point of insignificance. I can’t see any other pathway.

And if 2A is truly immutable, then I can see no possible long term outcome, if that tragic path is traveled, other than some States eventually seceding from the Union. Some people, in some States (on each coast) will eventually say ‘enough is enough’.

I must confess I find the evangelical and slavish adherence to 2A to be nothing short of bizarre. Its wording is plainly anachronistic and incongruous with modern legislature. It expressly mentions regulation and yet its fiercest acolytes are inimical to any associated meaningful regulation. It seems an utterly absurd thing to build your belief system around, but as you say it’s not going anywhere, and any moves to do so would be met with widespread and violent civil disobedience.

Sadly I think it will eventually be the downfall of US society, and there’s nothing anyone can do about it, other than watch in horror.

Widespread disobedience? But these are responsible, law-abiding gunowners. We’ve been told this hundreds of times. How can this be? Surely they’d all turn in their weapons no questions asked.

Hmmm. Well, even if not, I really don’t think the majority of cosplay gunowners are any match for the National Guard, and plenty would comply. But until those truly “responsible” gunowners take responsibility for actually creating the demand for the product in question, and stop demanding it, well . . . I doubt much changes.

 

[Manchester_lalala]

I grew up in sunny old England. I witnessed more poverty, crime, violence than I have ever experienced here. I do live the American Dream, it's a crazy, wonderful experience.....some innocents get hurt in the process

Isn’t Idaho a really quiet state with nothing much going on? That would probably be the reason why you haven’t witnessed much crime.

Your last sentence pretty much sums up the typical American response to these shootings.

 

[paulchapo]

Don’t agree with you there about guns mate, and tbf to some extent I’m at the front line in that regard. I would say gun use has been pretty steady over the last five years. Moreover their use is principally restricted to inter-OCG turf wars. Our gun laws are (rightly) draconian and harsh and I would say that a lid is kept on gun use, to a reasonably rigid degree. They are controlled to a hugely worthwhile extent. Long may it continue.

Sadly the same cannot be saud about knife crime, which is far more widespread and certainly on the increase. It could be said to be out of control, or certainly approaching that. Carrying knives among certain demographics has become routine, lamentably. This is far harder to regulate and control (for obvious reasons) than guns and the law and punishment here certainly needs looking at.

Losing a child to a fatal wounding can’t be any less tragic that losing one to a gunshot wound.

I'll bow to your superior knowledge regarding guns. It tends to ebb and flow. We had gunchester here a while back and now Liverpool appears to hold that mantle.

Knife crime is frightening as they are easy to get hold of and to hide and conceal. Being pretty cheap too they can be dumped if they know a search is imminent. More worryingly is the blasé way a lot of youths are willing to use them now. They don't seem overly concerned about killing somebody just about getting caught. It still doesn't stop them carrying or using them though.

No, a death is a death and no less tragic however it occurs.

 

[Trevor Morley's Tache]

Widespread disobedience? But these are responsible, law-abiding gunowners. We’ve been told this hundreds of times. How can this be? Surely they’d all turn in their weapons no questions asked.

Hmmm. Well, even if not, I really don’t think the majority of cosplay gunowners are any match for the National Guard, and plenty would comply. But until those truly “responsible” gunowners take responsibility for actually creating the demand for the product in question, and stop demanding it, well . . . I doubt much changes.

If America is full of 'responsible' gun owners, why are there so many firearms accidents?

I suspect it's a similar reason we have so many motor vehicle accidents in the UK despite the vast majority of drivers claiming they are 'responsible' when in many cases they are anything but.

 

[Blue Maverick]

Oh dear what a shame, rinse and repeat, they reap what they sow, feel sorry for the innocent victims but arming everyone makes it safer doesn’t it!

 

[gordondaviesmoustache]

I'll bow to your superior knowledge regarding guns. It tends to ebb and flow. We had gunchester here a while back and now Liverpool appears to hold that mantle.

Knife crime is frightening as they are easy to get hold of and to hide and conceal. Being pretty cheap too they can be dumped if they know a search is imminent. More worryingly is the blasé way a lot of youths are willing to use them now. They don't seem overly concerned about killing somebody just about getting caught. It still doesn't stop them carrying or using them though.

No, a death is a death and no less tragic however it occurs.

It’s been bad in Liverpool of late, agreed, but still rooted principally in OCG activity, including that poor little girl. Not trying to diminish it in any way btw, but just to demonstrate that it isn’t widespread and out of control like with tragedies such as this one in a school.

Agree with everything you’ve said about knives. It’s frightening how widespread carrying them now is. Young lads (as it almost invariably is) with no concept of the consequences of their actions for them, their family, or their victim and their family. A waste of so many lives.

 

[paulchapo]

One thing that baffles me is why so many school shootings? Is it disgruntled pupils or ex pupils? Are they seen as an easy target? Or do these deranged individuals shoot up schools because they know killing children will hurt their neighbourhood the most?

 

[Blue Maverick]

I think we are witnessing the demise of the union. There seems to be too big a division. “All political unions eventually collapse”. Texas is a country in its own right, Cali could go it alone. The stupid thing is the people who claim to love the US the most are the ones doing the damage.

I’d be interested to know how they think that would work, don’t most states have their own laws or are they talking about no federal laws etc, what about defence of the USA, it’s much like if Scotland broke away, what happens to all the airbases etc?

 

[paulchapo]

It’s been bad in Liverpool of late, agreed, but still rooted principally in OCG activity, including that poor little girl. Not trying to diminish it in any way btw, but just to demonstrate that it isn’t widespread and out of control like with tragedies such as this one in a school.

Agree with everything you’ve said about knives. It’s frightening how widespread carrying them now is. Young lads (as it almost invariably is) with no concept of the consequences of their actions for them, their family, or their victim and their family. A waste of so many lives.

My best mate was stabbed to death leaving the Reno in 1986. Back then it was headline news on Granada reports and front page news in the MEN. It was even reported in the tabloids. Now there are so many they hardly make the headlines unless the victim is very young or a villain.

 

[Koniec]

I’d be interested to know how they think that would work, don’t most states have their own laws or are they talking about no federal laws etc, what about defence of the USA, it’s much like if Scotland broke away, what happens to all the airbases etc?

Could be wrong but there’s only 1 or 2 operational air bases up here. We do have the Nukes though. The US has a history of a breakaway and civil war. It could easily happen again. You could argue there’s already a war going on, the Bloods and Crips have been at it for 40 years. With legally and illegally obtained guns.

 

[gordondaviesmoustache]

I’d be interested to know how they think that would work, don’t most states have their own laws or are they talking about no federal laws etc, what about defence of the USA, it’s much like if Scotland broke away, what happens to all the airbases etc?

Defence is a huge issue when it comes to seceding. Also, the Federal government isn’t just going to roll over and have its tummy tickled. Maybe states will be given opt outs around 2A and abortion as a compromise, but that then severely undermines the constitution as the bedrock of American society.

It’s certainly not straightforward, far from it. It would be ridiculous to suggest otherwise, but I do think it will reach that point eventually. As we’ve seen in this country, things can change very quickly.

And btw, as we’ve seen here, uncoupling is hugely fraught and complicated- and certainly not guaranteed to work.

 

[Blue Maverick]

It’s been bad in Liverpool of late, agreed, but still rooted principally in OCG activity, including that poor little girl. Not trying to diminish it in any way btw, but just to demonstrate that it isn’t widespread and out of control like with tragedies such as this one in a school.

Agree with everything you’ve said about knives. It’s frightening how widespread carrying them now is. Young lads (as it almost invariably is) with no concept of the consequences of their actions for them, their family, or their victim and their family. A waste of so many lives.

The main difference is that to USA is that you can’t walk around and take pot shots from 25 metres away with a knife if you are a nutter. Criminals tend to kill criminals with guns in this country unless unfortunately as the little girl in Liverpool got caught in the middle of it, we thankfully can’t go and buy them over the counter as I think we would have a similar problem in this country if we did. I’ve always said we are around 20 years behind the USA in terms of shit that goes on, as long as we don’t arm ourselves knives are our biggest problem. I think in school from the age 11 a copper should go in and at the start of the year and lay it on the line to the kids about knife crime, get caught with one 5 years in prison regardless, if you stab someone 10 years, if they die life, no exceptions. We need to be tougher on them but we won’t because others make excuses for them.

 

[FogBlueInSanFran]

If America is full of 'responsible' gun owners, why are there so many firearms accidents?

I suspect it's a similar reason we have so many motor vehicle accidents in the UK despite the vast majority of drivers claiming they are 'responsible' when in many cases they are anything but.

It’s possible you may have missed the tone I was trying to impart . . .

One thing that baffles me is why so many school shootings? Is it disgruntled pupils or ex pupils? Are they seen as an easy target? Or do these deranged individuals shoot up schools because they know killing children will hurt their neighbourhood the most?

Notoriety. How they will be remembered — actually not how, just that they WILL be remembered. Revenge. “They’ll realize how badly they treated me, the monster they turned me into.”