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It’s interesting how society deals with these types of issues. The slave trade, the Empire etc are all a stain on our past. Removing tge ship from the Manchester Coat of Arms won’t change anything! Instead history needs to be placed into context and our relationship with it needs to evolve. Theres no point in executing a cover up - the UK needs to come to terms with its past and accept responsibility for our ancestor’s actions. The statues of various despots who profited from the slave trade should not be in prominent places like they were in Bristol but they should be preserved in museums for people to learn from. The Germans could have bulldozed Dacau and pretended it was never there - but far better to preserve it and let us understand the horrors that took place there.

Statues at universities provided after substantial donations shows society approved, the university approved & took the blood money & all future students benefited.

No one is clean if you want to look deep, from the maid in the big house or the nurses in the hospital.

& it shouldn’t just be the Atlantic slave trade, slavery was common all over the world.
 
Apparently the daft Eagle was also a possible Nazi emblem
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Absolutely agree.

I would likely be classed as “woke” by many on here, as I fervently believe we still haven’t fully come to terms with the vast darkness of our history and the very real consequences of it still playing out around the world today (see what is happening in Sudan and Israel/Palestine right now for but two examples). Nor have we done much in the way of atoning for the sins of our fathers. That doesn’t mean condemning those alive today for what their ancestors did, but it does mean earnestly studying the harm our country has done over the centuries, especially in the name of empire, acknowledging that our relative wealth and political dominance today is largely due to heinous actions and insidious exploitation, and coming to terms with the exploitation and subjugation still existing today (evolved from the historical policies and actions of those that came before us), which underpin our socioeconomic and political structures, and our very way of life.

But even I think removing the ship from our, United’s, or any else crest/logo is wholly misguided. It serves to achieve none of the goals I outline above. If anything, as you allude to above, it only serves to further obfuscate our past. And beyond that, a sailing ship was used by a great many people in our culture and elsewhere for things completely unrelated to slavery, colonialism, and war. If we scrubbed all symbols that had some connection with those detestable actions we would scarcely have much left to use for any purpose.

Whilst I appreciate this blue’s work to highlight the role slavery and colonialism played in Manchester’s history (something we still need to explore more), removing the ship on the badge is not going to change anything. In fact, I think leaving it does more good.

Great post & we did as much damage as part of the League of Nations using a pencil & ruler to decide boundaries whilst putting our own rulers in place.

It’s no different to G14 using Gill & Parry.
 
Great post & we did as much damage as part of the League of Nations using a pencil & ruler to decide boundaries whilst putting our own rulers in place.

It’s no different to G14 using Gill & Parry.
Yeah, I was definitely referring to far more than the subject matter of the article. And much of that more recent history is being ignored these days.

As I have said a few times in the thread, to get back to more footballing related terms, I was denouncing the Dipper philosophy of revisionist denialism.

All of this discussion brings me back to one of my all time favourite skits.

 
The ship canal would never have been built if the Liverpudlian dockers hadn't priced the Manchester cotton mills out of unloading/storing the cotton in Livarpool in the 1st place.
As it happened once the ship canal was built there was no need for the ships to stop in Livarpool. A bit of an own goal really.
As for the slavery point.....well Manchester cotton mills bought the cotton.
Anyone in the world drink tea or wear clothes that are manufactured in Asia? Course they do. Doesn't make them a lover of slave wages or of employers who take advantage to profit.
 
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Fucking hell what next? Why don't these miserable wankers just fuck off. This cunts supposed to be a Blue?? With friends like that who needs enemies? It's a fucking ship. Ships didn't just carry slaves. You can look at every single thing and someone could find something racist/sexist/immoral or offensive to them. What next, ban a ship because it traumatises some milk sop who gets seasick and it triggers flashbacks from a trip they did in rough weather sailing to France on a school trip? Fuck off and then when you get there fuck off some more!

Christ on a bike. I'm having flashbacks to a hovercraft crossing in a storm that was like looking at a wall of water through the window, up the wave and then down the other side. Over and over again. And again ....

Should have taken 45 minutes (was it?), lasted twice as long. Talk about white knuckles. Proud not to have thrown up. Until I got in the car, of course. All over the passenger seat.

Thanks for reminding me, you bastard.
 
Christ on a bike. I'm having flashbacks to a hovercraft crossing in a storm that was like looking at a wall of water through the window, up the wave and then down the other side. Over and over again. And again ....

Should have taken 45 minutes (was it?), lasted twice as long. Talk about white knuckles. Proud not to have thrown up. Until I got in the car, of course. All over the passenger seat.

Thanks for reminding me, you bastard.

You're welcome lol. I was actually a deckhand on the hovercraft in Dover for a short time in 1989. There were small craft and large craft. If you copped a small craft in rough weather it could be tough. One thing is they didn't fly in any seas over force 6-7. A totally different motion to ships too. Ships pitch and roll whereas hovercrafts bounce. If it's any consolation I went to work once with a hangover. We were supposed to be on a large craft but got swapped to a small one and it was choppy. My shift was spent lying on a bench on the car deck during the crossing in-between throwing up. Then in port I did my job. All with the delightful smell of diesel too lol. So I suffered too.
 
Anyone in the world drink tea or wear clothes that are manufactured in Asia? Course they do. Doesn't make them a lover of slave wages or of employers who take advantage to profit.
But it does make us complicit once we are aware of how our way of life is maintained via externalisation of costs via the exploitation and suffering of people elsewhere (there is no such thing as “cheap” goods and services; someone, somewhere is making up the full price).

And I think it is fine to openly acknowledge, discuss, and grapple with what that means.

Which is why I don’t mind the article. I just think the suggestion the ship should be removed is misguided and ultimately counterproductive.
 
But it does make us complicit once we are aware of how our way of life is maintained via externalisation of costs via the exploitation and suffering of people elsewhere (there is no such thing as “cheap” goods and services; someone, somewhere is making up the full price).

And I think it is fine to openly acknowledge, discuss, and grapple with what that means.

Which is why I don’t mind the article. I just think the suggestion the ship should be removed is misguided and ultimately counterproductive.

I have absolutely no issue with the article itself. Other than being way too long and a bit pointless, but I don't see it as anti City at all in any way. What's counterproductive about it, is it presents one view, which is absolutely fine, and then tries to suggest it as the only right view. And the only way to acknowledge imortant discussion on historical events.
 
Every media outlet hates City.
No sports desk hates City or the Sheikh or the UAE more than The Guardian. They’re a bloody disgrace when it comes to our football club. I don’t mind them as a paper in general, but I’d rather buy a subscription to the Daily fucking Mail than the Guardian, just because of their sports writers.

They’ll have been rocking in their chairs when the writer came forward with that article; ‘ooh yay, another thing to have a dig about City over’.
 
The ship canal would never have been built if the Liverpudlian dockers hadn't priced the Manchester cotton mills out of unloading/storing the cotton in Livarpool in the 1st place.
As it happened once the ship canal was built there was no need for the ships to stop in Livarpool. A bit of an own goal really.
As for the slavery point.....well Manchester cotton mills bought the cotton.
Anyone in the world drink tea or wear clothes that are manufactured in Asia? Course they do. Doesn't make them a lover of slave wages or of employers who take advantage to profit.
Especially since many went on strike in support of the slaves, even if it meant them not being able to feed their own household.
 

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