Dianne Abbott

I appreciate all that and its right but if you actually read what she was explaining ( very badly ) is that there is a hierarchy of racism which is kind of being proven by the reaction in the press which is more geared to get Abbot and get at Labour than it is about proper analysis of what she was saying. Yes we are all aware of what happened under the Nazis but where today is the support for say travellers, Slavs and homosexuals who were persecuted by the Nazi's in equal percentages just not numbers?

Abbott is a fool who has offered up a stupid excuse - whatever she says they were the thoughts in her head - if you harbour shit like that in there you are racist/sexist/homophobic and so on - if you don't harbour those thoughts whether you air them or not own what you are.
She's fucked up massively and her explanation seems to have a whiff of her waffling her way out of it. Not going to deny that I've never particularly liked her but on the flip side, it's hilarious seeing all these prominent right wing racist cunts in the media trying to take the moral high ground.
 
Not a fan of hers or agree in any way with her comments but can’t help thinking the reaction is a little over the top and suspending the whip is excessive, and is more political than principled.
 
Not a fan of hers or agree in any way with her comments but can’t help thinking the reaction is a little over the top and suspending the whip is excessive, and is more political than principled.

Agreed. I’m not Diane Abbott’s greatest fan but I’m a little surprised by the outrage against her.

It was certainly clumsy and a bit ill educated however she raises an interesting point, her central issue with the article she was replying to being; if prejudice is classed as racism, is that diluting what racism means? Let me give an example for context, if you look in the holiday thread there are a few people who are saying “much better without the Russians”, “I hope no Russians” that type of thing - many who have had holidays where the Russians were would likely have some sympathy. Now is that prejudice or racism? The article would say racism, Abbott says prejudice….and then you extrapolate that to say how is that any different to say being negative towards the Irish? Same to those not wanting English football fans in their towns due to the fact a section are shit at holding their ale. Racism or prejudice?

Where she was clumsy was trying to group historical Jewish persecution as irrelevant whilst at the same time using historical slave trading as evidence. Such clumsiness is a little surprising from her given she drew an interesting line on the Rishi Sunak poster about sex offenders saying (and I paraphrase here a little) the use of an Indian-descent man on sex offenders posters was unhelpful. I suspect her outspokenness on this played a part in her being “got” now.
 
Not a fan of hers or agree in any way with her comments but can’t help thinking the reaction is a little over the top and suspending the whip is excessive, and is more political than principled.
Well it is political yes. And she's a politician. Here's a tip for Labour politicians. If you know that your party has been tarnished with a reputation for antisemitism, whether or not you think it's justified, try not to go out of your way to write an letter about how Jewish people's racism is different (let's be honest, lesser) to those of other racial minorities.

But also her argument is absolute bollocks. One could make the argument that white-looking minorities in the modern era, like Jews, travellers, gay people, etc, could fly under the radar by simply hiding their identity, whereas black/brown people can never do that. It's not a great argument, basically meaning that you're saying that not being able to openly live according to your culture without fear of attack or abuse isn't (technically) racism. But I get that some people might define racism as purely a colour thing, which is very much an academic argument - is racism just about colour or does it include ethnicity and culture? But that's not what she said. She said that 'there were no white-seeming people manacled on slave ships' as if there isn't some equivalency between that and the holocaust, which was explicitly about racial purity, and pointed to pre-civil rights America and South Africa, as if Jews didn't face centuries of similar segregation in many European countries leading up to the holocaust. Given that she's pointing to historical examples that are older than the holocaust, she is basically arguing that the holocaust wasn't racist prejudice, it was something different. Given that even if you believe that, it's such an academic and inconsequential distinction, why the fuck would you feel the need to make that distinction given that your party is trying to recover its image after being accused of antisemitism? For a politician, she just doesn't seem very good at politics.
 
Let me give an example for context, if you look in the holiday thread there are a few people who are saying “much better without the Russians”, “I hope no Russians” that type of thing - many who have had holidays where the Russians were would likely have some sympathy.
Let's be honest, that's clearly anger about a war. But if those same people sent death threats or bricked the windows of the local Russian shop, yes that would clearly be racist for me. Similarly, it was racist when America rounded up all of the ethnic Japanese in WW2 and held them in camps. It wasn't not racist because they didn't also round up all of the other East-Asian looking people.
 
Abbott lives and breathes race because IMHO she's made a decent living out of it, didn't she once say that Chairman Mao did more good than bad and that she criticised the appointment of 20 blonde haired blue eyed nurses at her local hospital.

I wouldn't let her take my dog for a walk.
 
Well it is political yes. And she's a politician. Here's a tip for Labour politicians. If you know that your party has been tarnished with a reputation for antisemitism, whether or not you think it's justified, try not to go out of your way to write an letter about how Jewish people's racism is different (let's be honest, lesser) to those of other racial minorities.

But also her argument is absolute bollocks. One could make the argument that white-looking minorities in the modern era, like Jews, travellers, gay people, etc, could fly under the radar by simply hiding their identity, whereas black/brown people can never do that. It's not a great argument, basically meaning that you're saying that not being able to openly live according to your culture without fear of attack or abuse isn't (technically) racism. But I get that some people might define racism as purely a colour thing, which is very much an academic argument - is racism just about colour or does it include ethnicity and culture? But that's not what she said. She said that 'there were no white-seeming people manacled on slave ships' as if there isn't some equivalency between that and the holocaust, which was explicitly about racial purity, and pointed to pre-civil rights America and South Africa, as if Jews didn't face centuries of similar segregation in many European countries leading up to the holocaust. Given that she's pointing to historical examples that are older than the holocaust, she is basically arguing that the holocaust wasn't racist prejudice, it was something different. Given that even if you believe that, it's such an academic and inconsequential distinction, why the fuck would you feel the need to make that distinction given that your party is trying to recover its image after being accused of antisemitism? For a politician, she just doesn't seem very good at politics.

Spot on.
 
Well it is political yes. And she's a politician. Here's a tip for Labour politicians. If you know that your party has been tarnished with a reputation for antisemitism, whether or not you think it's justified, try not to go out of your way to write an letter about how Jewish people's racism is different (let's be honest, lesser) to those of other racial minorities.

But also her argument is absolute bollocks. One could make the argument that white-looking minorities in the modern era, like Jews, travellers, gay people, etc, could fly under the radar by simply hiding their identity, whereas black/brown people can never do that. It's not a great argument, basically meaning that you're saying that not being able to openly live according to your culture without fear of attack or abuse isn't (technically) racism. But I get that some people might define racism as purely a colour thing, which is very much an academic argument - is racism just about colour or does it include ethnicity and culture? But that's not what she said. She said that 'there were no white-seeming people manacled on slave ships' as if there isn't some equivalency between that and the holocaust, which was explicitly about racial purity, and pointed to pre-civil rights America and South Africa, as if Jews didn't face centuries of similar segregation in many European countries leading up to the holocaust. Given that she's pointing to historical examples that are older than the holocaust, she is basically arguing that the holocaust wasn't racist prejudice, it was something different. Given that even if you believe that, it's such an academic and inconsequential distinction, why the fuck would you feel the need to make that distinction given that your party is trying to recover its image after being accused of antisemitism? For a politician, she just doesn't seem very good at politics.
Can’t argue with any of that.

However I think a harsh punishment such as removing the whip could be counterproductive and could actually encourage some people to be antisemitic or anti other white minorities due to Jews, travellers, Irish etc being painted as playing the victim. We’ve already seen people on this thread saying they can’t say the J word without being accused of antisemitism which is bollocks. A sincere apology by Abbott should have been enough. Her bullshit excuse about a first draft certainly didn’t help.
 
Can’t argue with any of that.

However I think a harsh punishment such as removing the whip could be counterproductive and could actually encourage some people to be antisemitic or anti other white minorities due to Jews, travellers, Irish etc being painted as playing the victim. We’ve already seen people on this thread saying they can’t say the J word without being accused of antisemitism which is bollocks. A sincere apology by Abbott should have been enough. Her bullshit excuse about a first draft certainly didn’t help.

Anyone who is going to be antisemitic because Diane Abbott lost the whip was already racist.
 
Well it is political yes. And she's a politician. Here's a tip for Labour politicians. If you know that your party has been tarnished with a reputation for antisemitism, whether or not you think it's justified, try not to go out of your way to write an letter about how Jewish people's racism is different (let's be honest, lesser) to those of other racial minorities.

But also her argument is absolute bollocks. One could make the argument that white-looking minorities in the modern era, like Jews, travellers, gay people, etc, could fly under the radar by simply hiding their identity, whereas black/brown people can never do that. It's not a great argument, basically meaning that you're saying that not being able to openly live according to your culture without fear of attack or abuse isn't (technically) racism. But I get that some people might define racism as purely a colour thing, which is very much an academic argument - is racism just about colour or does it include ethnicity and culture? But that's not what she said. She said that 'there were no white-seeming people manacled on slave ships' as if there isn't some equivalency between that and the holocaust, which was explicitly about racial purity, and pointed to pre-civil rights America and South Africa, as if Jews didn't face centuries of similar segregation in many European countries leading up to the holocaust. Given that she's pointing to historical examples that are older than the holocaust, she is basically arguing that the holocaust wasn't racist prejudice, it was something different. Given that even if you believe that, it's such an academic and inconsequential distinction, why the fuck would you feel the need to make that distinction given that your party is trying to recover its image after being accused of antisemitism? For a politician, she just doesn't seem very good at politics.
You put it across far better than I could've done!
 
Can’t argue with any of that.

However I think a harsh punishment such as removing the whip could be counterproductive and could actually encourage some people to be antisemitic or anti other white minorities due to Jews, travellers, Irish etc being painted as playing the victim. We’ve already seen people on this thread saying they can’t say the J word without being accused of antisemitism which is bollocks. A sincere apology by Abbott should have been enough. Her bullshit excuse about a first draft certainly didn’t help.
Do you think that this fear of being counterproductive is perhaps the reason why Jeremy Corbyn’s office interfered in the handling of so many complaints of anti-semitism during his time as Labour leader? Or indeed why they simply didn’t bother to investigate many other complaints? That’s an interesting argument, to put it mildly.

An alternative explanation is that this latest episode of the pissed-up bigot’s letter - which she alone saw the need to write - is just another example of the hard left’s engrained anti-Semitic views.

I know which explanation I regard as the more likely.
 
Not a fan of hers or agree in any way with her comments but can’t help thinking the reaction is a little over the top and suspending the whip is excessive, and is more political than principled.
I don't see her comments as antisemitic per se, but they perfectly illustrate the Labour Party's issue with antisemitism, particularly under the previous leadership. Corbyn himself, despite his and his supporters' unshakeable belief that there wasn't a racist bone in his body, came over as antisemitic.

Hence the reaction, which could be seen as excessive but where Starmer needs to make a point. I'd also suggest that Abbott is seen as a risk, and open target for the media, os he's been given the chance to remove that risk.
 
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These threads which inevitably become about race are by far the worst reading on bluemoon
 
I can't beleive this thread about an MP being suspended for expessing racist views has beend derailed by talk about racism.
It's important for some to redefine and to come up with scenarios depending on which party or part of the party the racism comes from.

Think of it like a city player going down in the box and the reaction to it compared to a scouse player doing the same.

Sad but inevitable.
 
It's important for some to redefine and to come up with scenarios depending on which party or part of the party the racism comes from.

Think of it like a city player going down in the box and the reaction to it compared to a scouse player doing the same.

Sad but inevitable.

a dipper diving in the box you say? What a thing to suggest - how very dare you lol
 

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