Ref Watch

halfcenturyup said:
Genuine question. What is the relationship supposed to be between the referee and the VAR in this situation? Is he there to assist the referee to make the best decision, or to just tell him what his decision should be and justify it to him? Only asking because these protocols seem so inconsistent.

For the Grealish handball, for example, it took VAR a minute and multiple angles to decide what happened. Why should a referee get only one angle. Who is actually refereeing the game here?
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If it takes that long it isn't an obvious and clear error by the referee. No penalty should have been awarded.
 
halfcenturyup said:
Genuine question. What is the relationship supposed to be between the referee and the VAR in this situation? Is he there to assist the referee to make the best decision, or to just tell him what his decision should be and justify it to him? Only asking because these protocols seem so inconsistent.

For the Grealish handball, for example, it took VAR a minute and multiple angles to decide what happened. Why should a referee get only one angle. Who is actually refereeing the game here?
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It is confusing. Probably as much for the officials themselves initially because the protocol is different depending on the type of incident.

For offside it is considered a matter of fact if a player is in an offside position. So if there’s no question of a subjective interfering decision to be made, the VAR will just tell the referee.

Technically speaking the referee always makes the final decision, so he could in theory ignore the VAR, even on an offside but obviously in practice that’s never going to happen.

For a handball like Grealish’s, the delay while the VAR studied the footage would have been all about making sure the ball actually did touch his fingers. Once that was established he’d inform the referee he thinks there’s been a handball and show him the angle that best backs up his opinion. The referee can if he wishes request further angles. He can say he’s not convinced and stick with his decision. Or go with the VAR recommendation. As much as people don’t like it, for one like this where there’s clear evidence the ball has touched the hand, while the hand is up at shoulder/ head height, it’s as straight forward a reversal as they’re going to get, from their point of view.
 
How many % more real points do we need to win to finish above united?

Facts -

Since Darius Vassell missed that pen in 2007? we haven’t had a single pen v them in the league, they have had countless v us despite in that time us being miles better, much more possession, much more in their box etc

In the league game at the swamp they equalised with a clearly offside goal in a game they weren’t in and wouldn’t have been - 6 point swing

In the biggest most public game of the season -

They get a pen that absolutely wasn’t; despite VAR

We don’t get a pen that absolutely was; despite VAR

They get a free kick when it should have been a red card the other way; despite VAR

Fred committed yellow card offence after yellow card offence and only gets one belated yellow (same ref did exactly the same v dippers at anfield last season)

Fred, ratface and others in the refs face all afternoon , after the award of any free kick, nothing done

Week after week teams time waste like fuck against us and nothing gets done, our keeper breathes in deeply once and is booked, regularly

It’s in the public eye, it’s clear and blatant cheating, and carries on week after fucking week and it’s FUCKING DISGUSTING
 
Stephen230 said:
It is confusing. Probably as much for the officials themselves initially because the protocol is different depending on the type of incident.

For offside it is considered a matter of fact if a player is in an offside position. So if there’s no question of a subjective interfering decision to be made, the VAR will just tell the referee.

Technically speaking the referee always makes the final decision, so he could in theory ignore the VAR, even on an offside but obviously in practice that’s never going to happen.

For a handball like Grealish’s, the delay while the VAR studied the footage would have been all about making sure the ball actually did touch his fingers. Once that was established he’d inform the referee he thinks there’s been a handball and show him the angle that best backs up his opinion. The referee can if he wishes request further angles. He can say he’s not convinced and stick with his decision. Or go with the VAR recommendation. As much as people don’t like it, for one like this where there’s clear evidence the ball has touched the hand, while the hand is up at shoulder/ head height, it’s as straight forward a reversal as they’re going to get, from their point of view.
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Leaving aside this is a farcical interpretation of handball—as pointed out by many commentators, pundits, and journalists—one of the main issues is that similar incidents don’t always result in a handball/penalty being given, including in the same match, as was the case here (AWB handball in the box with his trailing arm well away from his body touching the ball). United themselves have actually not been given handball for even worse situations (Lindelof’s obvious elbow out to stop a low cross immediately comes to mind).

The inconsistency is the biggest problem. If this was *always* a handball it would be easier to accept. But it isn’t. Sometimes it is, sometime it isn’t. And it being given in this particular situation, with United having created practically nothing before the incident, with no player really even protested for it (because they all knew it wasn’t intentional and there wasn’t much Grealish could do to avoid it given how close he was to AWB), and VAR having to view multiple angles to even confirm it touched his hand, make it an especially harsh decision.

And one that could have turned the tide of the match. Just as ignoring Casemiro’s challenge on Akanji and Fred’s on De Bruyne could have (not to mention Fred’s many other fouls).

Unfortunately, as I said in an earlier post, the inconsistency appears to be a feature, not a bug, of the current officiating setup. It gives them leeway to make whatever decision is needed to protect the spectacle of the game.

It is an example of “balancing” matches that seems to be used more and more, especially with us.
 
SebastianBlue said:
Leaving aside this is a farcical interpretation of handball—as pointed out by many commentators, pundits, and journalists—one of the main issues is that similar incidents don’t always result in a handball/penalty being given, including in the same match, as was the case here (AWB handball in the box with his trailing arm well away from his body touching the ball). United themselves have actually not been given handball for even worse situation (Lindelof’s obvious elbow out to stop a low cross).

The inconsistency is the biggest problem. If this was *always* a handball it would be easier to accept. But it isn’t. Sometimes it is, sometime it isn’t. And it in this particular situation, given United had create practically nothing before the incident, no player really even protested for it (because they all knew it wasn’t intentional and there wasn’t much Grealish could do to avoid it given how close he was to AWB), and VAR had to view multiple angles to even confirm it touched his hand, this is an especially harsh decision.

And one that could have turned the tide of the match. Just as ignoring Casemiro’s challenge on Akanji and Fred’s on De Bruyne could have.

Unfortunately, as I said in an earlier post, the inconsistency appears to be a feature, not a bug, of the current officiating setup. It gives them leeway to make whatever decision is needed to protect the spectacle of the game.

It is an example of “balancing” matches that seems to be used more and more, especially with us.
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Its consistent. Rags get every decision… All 3 (Grealish/Casemiro/KDB Pen) potentially match changing decisions on Saturday were all wrong and all in the rags favour. Yet again. They couldnt be more consistent if they tried
 
SebastianBlue said:
Leaving aside this is a farcical interpretation of handball—as pointed out by many commentators, pundits, and journalists—one of the main issues is that similar incidents don’t always result in a handball/penalty being given, including in the same match, as was the case here (AWB handball in the box with his trailing arm well away from his body touching the ball). United themselves have actually not been given handball for even worse situations (Lindelof’s obvious elbow out to stop a low cross immediately comes to mind).

The inconsistency is the biggest problem. If this was *always* a handball it would be easier to accept. But it isn’t. Sometimes it is, sometime it isn’t. And it being given in this particular situation, with United having created practically nothing before the incident, with no player really even protested for it (because they all knew it wasn’t intentional and there wasn’t much Grealish could do to avoid it given how close he was to AWB), and VAR having to view multiple angles to even confirm it touched his hand, make it an especially harsh decision.

And one that could have turned the tide of the match. Just as ignoring Casemiro’s challenge on Akanji and Fred’s on De Bruyne could have (not to mention Fred’s many other fouls).

Unfortunately, as I said in an earlier post, the inconsistency appears to be a feature, not a bug, of the current officiating setup. It gives them leeway to make whatever decision is needed to protect the spectacle of the game.

It is an example of “balancing” matches that seems to be used more and more, especially with us.
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Nobody, least of all me, is denying there are frustrating inconsistencies.

I was just answering the guy who asked what I thought the process would be in a case like Grealish’s handball.

There wasn’t a similar handball in the match. I was talking specifically about when there is clear evidence the ball touches the hand while the hand is high up near head height. They’ll always be an exception somewhere but I can’t recall one where that hasn’t been given. I remember a Leeds one the other week that looked awfully harsh and he was even shoved from behind into ball.

But whether you or me or Alan Shearer like it or not, they are consistently giving those where their hands are up near head height pretty much every time.
 
Stephen230 said:
Nobody, least of all me, is denying there are frustrating inconsistencies.

I was just answering the guy who asked what I thought the process would be in a case like Grealish’s handball.

There wasn’t a similar handball in the match. I was talking specifically about when there is clear evidence the ball touches the hand while the hand is high up near head height. They’ll always be an exception somewhere but I can’t recall one where that hasn’t been given. I remember a Leeds one the other week that looked awfully harsh and he was even shoved from behind into ball.

But whether you or me or Alan Shearer like it or not, they are consistently giving those where their hands are up near head height pretty much every time.
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Yup, it’s the interpretation of the arms being in an unnatural position that’s gone to pot this season in particular, seen quite a few similarly given.

The AWB one, like you say, is different. They do seem to be judging those more on natural movement (which they should still be doing too with ones like Grealish’s).

On the others, I didn’t think Casemiros was a red, thought it was a yellow, and the KDB one was one of those where I don’t think VAR would have intervened either way.
 
SebastianBlue said:
IMG-3665.jpg
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We need to start leathering balls at 60mph directly at refs at head height and see where their arm naturally goes.
 
The yellow card for Ortega was the biggest joke. I think just before he booked him the ref called Gundo over to him and must have told him to tell Ortega he was on a warning. Bear in mind that Ortega had barely touched the ball up until that point other than start our attacks. Next minute yellow card comes out. Let's hope Tierney refs the same way next season as if not you have to ask why he decided the yellow card was merited. The other thing refs need to clamp down on are the fake injuries to a keeper. De Gea went down in the first half for no reason but miraculously survived until the final whistle with no further treatment. The stupid thing is that teams don't realise these tactical injuries so that a manager has time to issue new instructions also gives Pep the time to do what he needs to do. It's called cheating and needs to stop.
 
meltonblue said:
Yup, it’s the interpretation of the arms being in an unnatural position that’s gone to pot this season in particular, seen quite a few similarly given.

The AWB one, like you say, is different. They do seem to be judging those more on natural movement (which they should still be doing too with ones like Grealish’s).

On the others, I didn’t think Casemiros was a red, thought it was a yellow, and the KDB one was one of those where I don’t think VAR would have intervened either way.
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Its as clear a penalty as you’ll ever see….
 

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Bluearmy said:
Its as clear a penalty as you’ll ever see….
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I thought it was a penalty, and like I said I don’t think var would have intervened had it been given either.

I’d be interested to see the vid again to confirm I still think that though, don’t think a still image proves that much.
 
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