Scrapping VAT and removing charitable schools - Labour policy - do you agree with it ?

Mr Kobayashi said:
As in not "goods", goods are tangible.

I wasn't aware classifying something using the standard definition was insanity.
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Education irrespective of how it’s paid for (none of it is free) is an investment (in human capital).

Investments should be taxed at end, not at start (once you enter the world of work in the case of education).
 
My local private school is £16k a year for the final 5 years, I know people who send their kids there and similar on average wages, and it is mainly grandparents forking out from what I can tell.

It relieves some of the burden on the state system, pointless attacking them for ideological reasons when it could end up costing the public purse more in the end.
 
metalblue said:
Education irrespective of how it’s paid for (none of it is free) is an investment (in human capital).

Investments should be taxed at end, not at start (once you enter the world of work in the case of education).
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You make a good point. So let's not leave investment to the whims of parents.

It is part of infrastructure.
 
If you were starting from a 100% state school position and somebody said "I want to start a fee-paying school, let me be a charity and not pay VAT. In return we'll let (some) kids from poor families pay nothing" what would you tell them?

Me - Good luck, but pay your fucking taxes like the rest of us


For reference, Manchester Grammar...

Fees for the year 2023/24 are £15,180 per year, or £5,060 per term.
Thanks to the generosity of our donors, since 1998 we have spent £25 million funding life-changing bursary places for more than 600 bright boys, who might otherwise have missed out on a first-class education because of their financial circumstances.

so that's 600 in 25 years
there are currently c1,600 kids enrolled at say £15k average, that's £24M per year
 
Mr Kobayashi said:
The average is not far off it for boarders.

For a day pupil it is 20K.

I also did it a little research on the three private schools in my own town. The cheapest is 10k a term.

How can a paramedic or nurse afford 20K unless they have a rich partner or have familial wealth?

www.sjp.co.uk

Can you still afford a private education – plus VAT?

The Labour government is poised to add 20% VAT to the cost of independent school fees from 1st January 2025. Can you still afford to send your child to private schools? We explore your financial options.
www.sjp.co.uk www.sjp.co.uk
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A couple of band 5 nurses at final pay point married to each other will be earning £70k a year, two band 6 mid point £75k. two band 7 at first pay point £86k - there is this misconception that those sending their kids to private school are on serious cash, they really aren’t (some are for sure) but these are the people who will have to take their kids out if they start paying another 20%. Full time child care in this country will run you to £13k a year, if they can then send their kid to private school for the same money it’s not such a hard choice. Yes they go without luxuries like holidays and keep the old car etc.
 
Can’t be right or representative can it?……….

Green, F. 2022. ‘Private Schools and Inequality.’

% of privately educated in positions of power, 2019/20
Cabinet: 40%
House of Lords: 60%
Police Chiefs: 25%
Senior Judges: 70%
Diplomats: 55%

Pupil / teacher ratio since 2011

State/ Secondary: 18/1
Private: 9/1
 
Ashton Moss Messi said:
If you were starting from a 100% state school position and somebody said "I want to start a fee-paying school, let me be a charity and not pay VAT. In return we'll let (some) kids from poor families pay nothing" what would you tell them?

Me - Good luck, but pay your fucking taxes like the rest of us


For reference, Manchester Grammar...

Fees for the year 2023/24 are £15,180 per year, or £5,060 per term.
Thanks to the generosity of our donors, since 1998 we have spent £25 million funding life-changing bursary places for more than 600 bright boys, who might otherwise have missed out on a first-class education because of their financial circumstances.

so that's 600 in 25 years
there are currently c1,600 kids enrolled at say £15k average, that's £24M per year
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Even the conservatives and Gove in particular were arguing that the VAT exemption should go not that long ago and threatened it in their 2017 manifesto if private schools didn’t do more to help the state sector.
 
Mr Kobayashi said:
You make a good point. So let's not leave investment to the whims of parents.

It is part of infrastructure.
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Yes I agree it’s part of the state infrastructure. I’d have no issue paying more tax for better outcomes for our kids, private schools should not need to exist at all. We need a complete rethink on education to serve everyone, not just the academics.
 
metalblue said:
Yes I agree it’s part of the state infrastructure. I’d have no issue paying more tax for better outcomes for our kids, private schools should not need to exist at all. We need a complete rethink on education to serve everyone, not just the academics.
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That’s why they are asking you to pay VAT. :)
 
bluenova said:
I have to defer to the Institute of Fiscal Studies over your own analysis I'm afraid ;)

If it's 1.3-1.5bn, then it's 2-2.5% of the schools budget (which is only part of the overall education budget). If that's targeted at, say the poorest 10%, then you're talking about a significant 20-25% boost per pupil. You may assume that it's not going to be ringfenced, but that's the stated policy.
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The IFS report assumes that any reduction in expenditure on school fees - as a result of parents taking their kids out of private education after the introduction of VAT - would simply be redistributed to other areas of consumer spending, thereby maintain overall tax revenues.

Personally I’m not sure this would be the case as I know several people who only work in order to pay for school fees, and so if they had to remove their kids from private education, they would either give up work entirely or work fewer hours. I would also argue that if parents continue to pay increased school fees after a VAT hike, then it would likely lead to drastically reduced expenditure in other areas, so any increase in VAT revenues could be very small.
 
metalblue said:
A couple of band 5 nurses at final pay point married to each other will be earning £70k a year, two band 6 mid point £75k. two band 7 at first pay point £86k - there is this misconception that those sending their kids to private school are on serious cash, they really aren’t (some are for sure) but these are the people who will have to take their kids out if they start paying another 20%. Full time child care in this country will run you to £13k a year, if they can then send their kid to private school for the same money it’s not such a hard choice. Yes they go without luxuries like holidays and keep the old car etc.
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Isn’t the rhetoric nowadays they should be more aspirational and get a better paid job then though…? ;)

I’m assuming more in that bracket would be priced out by impacts due to the mortgage rates over the next couple of years than they would this though surely if they are in that state of having to cut back on luxuries already.

I’d say again though, If it’s a private school that is charging 14k per annum, they won’t pass on the full 20% to the fee payers.
 
The stench of politics of envy is rife yet again on here.

If I could afford to privately educate my kids I fucking would.

What others do with their children is their own business.

In the meantime I will make sure my kids do their very best to excel at school regardless.
 
bluethrunthru said:
I heard today less than 3k kids attend public schools - how many are from UK families rather than from abroad? How often is there more than one child attending? The number of UK votes at risk over what - 600 seats? - there is a miniscule risk
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There is more than that that attend MGS, Stockport Grammar, Cheadle Hulme, WGS and MHSG alone. There are about 4,000 secondary schools in the UK and just under 2,500 independent ones
 
blueinsa said:
The stench of politics of envy is rife yet again on here.

If I could afford to privately educate my kids I fucking would.

What others do with their children is their own business.

In the meantime I will make sure my kids do their very best to excel at school regardless.
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To be fair, most of the argument is around whether they should have VAT exemption or not, which does make it others business too and the conservatives previously and labour now are in favour of it.

Personally I’m not averse to private schools. I just don’t think they should be subsidised.
 
meltonblue said:
Isn’t the rhetoric nowadays they should be more aspirational and get a better paid job then though…? ;)

I’m assuming more in that bracket would be priced out by impacts due to the mortgage rates over the next couple of years than they would this though surely if they are in that state of having to cut back on luxuries already.

I’d say again though, If it’s a private school that is charging 14k per annum, they won’t pass on the full 20% to the fee payers.
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You’re right that the cost of living increases are going to bring in added pressure and this on top would push them over.

You’ve given Starmer his reason for a u-turn now ;)
 
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