Scrapping VAT and removing charitable schools - Labour policy - do you agree with it ?

[Kompany Car]

Found this:

However, the term public school has an entirely different definition in the UK education system. Public schools are perceived as the most exclusive and prestigious private schools in the UK, as well-known examples include Eton College, Harrow School and Wellington College. Most public schools are highly selective, as many contain boarding facilities for students as well. Such term is indeed highly confusing owing to the traditional definition of the word 'public' as academic institutions that are independent from the English church and government. Apart from public schools, the other two forms of fee-paying schools in the UK include private schools and independent schools. Whilst independent schools are overseen by a board of governors or trustees, private schools are run by the owners, thus are comparatively more selective. On the contrary, government-funded schools are labelled as state schools, as most provide education free of charge. Some students from state schools will also be selected to attend more academically-oriented secondary schools called grammar schools through the 11-plus exam. However, international students must have a British or European Union passport in order to enroll into a state school.

To keep it simple all public schools are private schools but not all private schools are public schools.

 

[MillionMilesAway]

ok. maybe. Whats the difference? Both are fee paying and VAT exempt.

Looks like you found an answer!
It's a messy set of terms - differs between Scotland and England, I think.
In England, private schools are private, public schools are also private, state schools are public... independent schools are something...

 

[Saddleworth2]

To keep it simple all public schools are private schools but not all private schools are public schools.

typical bloody UK class ridden society where 'public' means 'not allowed unless your father attended and you have a fucking huge amount of money and are a singularly arrogant fuck'.

Ban the lot.

 

[threespires]

Hmm, my son went to a state primary and junior school and then got a partially funded scholarship awarded (only partially as they take into account the income of the parents).

When I look at the opportunities he has had purely through the networks he has built up within the private school, they are far beyond those which most of the kids who remained in the the state school system have had.

I think that's really the point, doubtless the lower teacher pupil ratio helps with classroom management which in turn significantly impacts learning quality etc, but a lot of the benefit is that it allows you to build up more 'social capital' the relationships, networks and importantly 'know how' you develop is worth a significant amount across a lifetime.

I'm going to massively generalise but I think the properly rich & upper classes understand social capital explicitly and fully know how to leverage it to the hilt, whereas the middle classes leverage their social capital but often without realising or refusing to acknowledge that they have these intangible assets that benefit them or give them an advantage. It's not malicious, they just assume that everyone has access to these things they have if only they really tried.

 

[PragueBlue]

Hmm, my son went to a state primary and junior school and then got a partially funded scholarship awarded (only partially as they take into account the income of the parents).

When I look at the opportunities he has had purely through the networks he has built up within the private school, they are far beyond those which most of the kids who remained in the the state school system have had.

I wouldn't say mine will gain, or have gained, any advantage due to their contacts/networks but there again they are not particularly well known schools and most of their classmates were offspring of the middle class, rather than high flyers.

 

[meltonblue]

I would disagree with that on the whole, though perhaps true at some of the 'elite' schools like Harrow and Eton.

My children have all been to both private and state schools at various times. The majority of parents at the different private schools they attended would fall more into the middle class bracket such as small business owners, estate agents, solicitors, accountants etc.

I don't really feel the names of the schools they attended would give them any great advantage or contacts going forward either. I also suspect that the parents do check out the school, Ofsted reports and exam results etc before deciding to send their children there, just like I did.

My first point about the affordability is from the research done, if VAT were scrapped then if the schools pass all of it onto the parents, which is a big if as some won’t, then around 17% would be priced out of it (I doubt the conservatives would say that group need to be more aspirational and get a better paid job though ;)). The actual figure would be lower than that though due to the changes in provision some would do. Either way that’s still 83% that are still fine.

On the latter, I was purely talking about my own experience and the people who were at the grammar school and university that were privately educated, I’ve benefitted from making those connections myself at the grammar school.

 

[PragueBlue]

My first point about the affordability is from the research done, if VAT were scrapped then if the schools pass all of it onto the parents, which is a big if as some won’t, then around 17% would be priced out of it (I doubt the conservatives would say that group need to be more aspirational and get a better paid job though ;)). The actual figure would be lower than that though due to the changes in provision some would do. Either way that’s still 83% that are still fine.

On the latter, I was purely talking about my own experience and the people who were at the grammar school and university that were privately educated, I’ve benefitted from making those connections myself at the grammar school.

Maybe my kids just mixed with the wrong people and made the wrong contacts ;-)

I don't think they are going to derive any real benefit in their chosen careers but appreciate it may be different for others.

 

[Kompany Car]

I think that's really the point, doubtless the lower teacher pupil ratio helps with classroom management which in turn significantly impacts learning quality etc, but a lot of the benefit is that it allows you to build up more 'social capital' the relationships, networks and importantly 'know how' you develop is worth a significant amount across a lifetime.

I'm going to massively generalise but I think the properly rich & upper classes understand social capital explicitly and fully know how to leverage it to the hilt, whereas the middle classes leverage their social capital but often without realising or refusing to acknowledge that they have these intangible assets that benefit them or give them an advantage. It's not malicious, they just assume that everyone has access to these things they have if only they really tried.

One thing that surprised me was that the kids were actively encouraged to challenge the view of teachers. Something which I don’t think tends to happen in state schools that much. With opinions being examined and broken down.

Obviously it’s expected to be done in a constructive manner (so no shouting from the back with expletives), but it does break down the boundaries of challenging authority and hierarchy, which holds back many people from normal backgrounds.

I know from my own experience of dealing with very senior people in businesses, I often feel a bit of an imposter because of my background and conditioning around hierarchical structures within society which starts from school. Thankfully my son seems to have less of that baggage.

 

[meltonblue]

Maybe my kids just mixed with the wrong people and made the wrong contacts ;-)

I don't think they are going to derive any real benefit in their chosen careers but appreciate it may be different for others.

Quite a few I knew got a work experience placement at friends parents companies and subsequently went to work for them.

Unless someone’s in a catchment area that doesn’t have a decent state school, I’m not sure why else someone would do it if it’s not around the social aspect, even if it’s not around potential career benefits, or because they can easily afford to do it.

 

[PragueBlue]

Quite a few I knew got a work experience placement at friends parents companies and subsequently went to work for them.

Unless someone’s in a catchment area that doesn’t have a decent state school, I’m not sure why else someone would do it if it’s not around the social aspect, even if it’s not around potential career benefits, or because they can easily afford to do it.

I did it because I felt (and my children did) that they were the schools where they would feel happiest. They were born abroad and were used to international schools and the private schools here gave them a better continuation of their education. It has seemingly worked out well for them thus far and so no regrets.