How do we resolve the Brexit mess?

The real alternative to Brexit is to build a new continent 22 miles off our coast. This will be a major construction scheme, creating millions, perhaps billions of jobs. The starting point will be to fill in a large section of the Atlantic. We can call this new continent 'Atlantis'. Naturally, all the inhabitants will be white nominal Christians and speak English.

Once this new continent is populated by about 450 million people who are all as like us as possible, we can trade freely with it, and it will make up for our loss of the EU.

This may seem far-fetched, but it's more realistic than any of the alternatives to the EU so far proposed. Unless that is, you want to be a subsidiary of the USA, China or India.
 
gordondaviesmoustache said:
It’s insanely complex.
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You're right,

On top of the incompetent, expensive, make it up as you go along shit show, the corruption and the bewildering bureaucracy, there's the added complexity that arises when you have in the body politic, two distinct and completely incompatible views of the same problem.

On the one hand we have 30p Lee and the GB News, Farage crowd who just want these "economic migrants" stopped, which in practical terms cannot be done, coupled with the general view within the conservative blob that this isn't a processing issue, it's a deterrence issue, hence all that "hostile environment" stuff back in the day...

8846_original.jpg



But for the Labour left this is solely an asylum claims issue, the likes of Owen Jones and the Guardian see a backlog, not of "economic migrants" but "asylum seekers" and the problem solved by setting up safe, legal routes to the UK, perhaps a UK asylum processing centre in France, the French have no objections.

These two approaches are incompatible, as they stem from different interpretations of the same problem, or even, as in the case of the Labour left, whether it's a problem at all. They're keen for these asylum seekers to be processed expeditiously, and either deported or active in our labour starved economy asap.

We all know Sunak is weak, but that is only a partial explanation for his failure, he fails because he's more Lee Anderson than Owen Jones, if only because he knows what little support he has left in the country is primarily anti immigrant. Streamlining the process might clear the backlog, but he fears that'll mean more Johnny foreigners staying and more Johnny foreigners potentially heading our way, and they don't like that sort of thing in the marginals he still hopes to cling onto.

And therein lies the rub.

Deputy Tory party chairman, Lee Anderson.
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'F**k off back to France'

With the threat of Reform UK to his right, with Richard Tice threatening to field candidates in key seats at the next election, Sunak knows he's in the shitter. He may not be able to solve the "problem", but he must be seen to be tough in the process, while blaming lefty lawyers, Labour, Starmer and anyone vaguely liberal, for his inability to get it done (whatever it is).

In the meantime, whatever it is, complex or otherwise, it ain't getting done.
 
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Grassland Blue said:
Brazil, Russia, India and China.
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Oh - I see a slight problem there!

The perfect fumble said:
On the one hand we have 30p Lee and the GB News, Farage crowd who just want these "economic migrants" stopped, which in practical terms cannot be done...
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Why do you say that? I saw a recent interview on Newsnight with an Australian guy called Alexander Downer who described what they did to stop the boats coming to their country and it worked.

Why do you say ".... in practical terms (it) cannot be done"?
 
gill_undrhill said:
Oh - I see a slight problem there!



Why do you say that? I saw a recent interview on Newsnight with an Australian guy called Alexander Downer who described what they did to stop the boats coming to their country and it worked.

Why do you say ".... in practical terms (it) cannot be done"?
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Australia allows asylum applications to be made in their Embassies / Consulates overseas .... they can therefore assume that anyone who tries to enter on a boat wouldn't pass one of the 5 asylum tests.

The UK doesn't accept asylum applications until you land on our shores.
 
Ifwecouldjust....... said:
Australia allows asylum applications to be made in their Embassies / Consulates overseas .... they can therefore assume that anyone who tries to enter on a boat wouldn't pass one of the 5 asylum tests.

The UK doesn't accept asylum applications until you land on our shores.
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And then we don’t process them.
 
gill_undrhill said:
Oh - I see a slight problem there!



Why do you say that? I saw a recent interview on Newsnight with an Australian guy called Alexander Downer who described what they did to stop the boats coming to their country and it worked.

Why do you say ".... in practical terms (it) cannot be done"?
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This explains Australia's Offshoring Policy....

https://www.futurelearn.com/info/courses/migration-facts/0/steps/34241

And this....

The "Rwanda Solution" using Australia's playbook...

https://migration.bristol.ac.uk/2023/03/28/the-rwanda-solution-using-australias-playbook/#:~:text=The Australian offshore asylum programme,crossings and arriving by boat.

Gives you an overview of the pitfalls of adopting it in the UK.

You can make your own mind up.
 
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gill_undrhill said:
Oh - I see a slight problem there!



Why do you say that? I saw a recent interview on Newsnight with an Australian guy called Alexander Downer who described what they did to stop the boats coming to their country and it worked.

Why do you say ".... in practical terms (it) cannot be done"?
Click to expand...

gill_undrhill said:
Oh - I see a slight problem there!



Why do you say that? I saw a recent interview on Newsnight with an Australian guy called Alexander Downer who described what they did to stop the boats coming to their country and it worked.

Why do you say ".... in practical terms (it) cannot be done"?
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With the exception of Papua New Guinea the nearest country to Australia is a lot further than England is to France!
 
GortonBlue62 said:
EU law is made by the Commision. The Parliament and the Council of Ministers can modify or even reject the laws that emanate from the Commission but they rarely do.

The European Parliament is a Parliament in name only. Its members are not legislators.

The Commission meets in secret and all it's machinations are confidential. Commissioners are appointed not elected, they are therefore unaccountable.

The House of Commons publicly tore itself to shreds in the weeks leading up to the 2019 election. The British electorate delivered its judgement in the election. Democracy in action.

Two examples of UK commissioners. Neil Kinnock lost the 1992 election after 13 years of Conservative government; the British electorate decided they didn't want him anywhere near the levers of power. He was then appointed to the EU Commission where he made laws affecting UK citizens. When he was finished in Brussels he was appointed to the House of Lords which must surely be every Democrats next target. Peter Mandelson was forced to resign from Blair's government; basically here's a guy who isn't fit to hold high office. Same career path as Kinnock, EU Commission and then the House of Lords.

Both Kinnock and Mandelson fail Tony Benn's test - when you meet someone in a position of power ask them two questions - How did you get there? and How xan we get rid of you? MPs are elected and general elections and sometimes public opinion can remove them.

If as a UK citizen you fell foul of EU law there would have been no point going to your MEP to complain because he or she didn't make the law. How about going to the relevant Commissioner? That's no good because commissioners are appointed not elected they don't need your vote so they are accountable to no one.

Compare that to UK law. If a law is unfair, and they often are as it's difficult to frame good legislation, you go to your MP's constituency surgery and raise the issue. If you have a case the issue can be raised in Parliament and the law can be changed. MPs do this not because they are better people than MEPs but because they are accountable to the people they serve. Again it's called democracy.

On your narrow point asking for examples of EU laws I object to, I'd say it's irrelevant. Even if I agreed with everything the EU Commission did the substantial point is that the people who make the laws that affect us have to be directly accountable to us. (If you must have an example, I'd cite the Common Agricultural.Policy which inflates food prices for millions of the poorest people in the European Union and stops poor farmers in Africa and elsewhere selling into the EU. At no point were alternatives debated or tested in an election.).
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“Compare that to UK law. If a law is unfair, and they often are as it's difficult to frame good legislation, you go to your MP's constituency surgery and raise the issue. If you have a case the issue can be raised in Parliament and the law can be changed”
Laws being “unfair” won’t get changed.
Laws being “illegal” will. Hence we have a Supreme Court, which, thankfully, can hold the government’s feet to the flames of legality.
 
BrianW said:
British 'democracy' is not democracy.

At the next election, another minority will put in a Labour government, probably with a large majority. If the majority is much above 50, Starmer will claim a huge mandate to do what he likes, despite the fact that most people voted against it.

At a typical GE, the decision is made by a relatively small number of floating voters in marginal seats. And it doesn't matter whether the winner of a constituency wins by 1 vote or 40,000, the MP will always claim a personal mandate. Even when more people voted against him/her than for.

Most of us might as well be living in the UAE for all the practical impact we have on politics, or on policies.
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“Most of us might as well be living in the UAE for all thepractical impact we have on politics, or on policies.”
It’d make getting to that World Club Cup thing easier. Every cloud...
 
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