HS2 - Birmingham to Manchester scrapped.

[Dave Ewing's Back 'eader]

We really don’t need HS2 tho. The travel routes are pretty decent between London-Manchester and London-Leeds etc, the time savings suggested really are not that good compared to what we have now (Although when checking just now the suggested times seem to be far more optimistic that they were at the start, when it was said to be about 30 mins faster, now saying 54 )

Personally what we really need is a far better Liverpool-Manchester-leeds-Newcastle line.

Are they now sticking a couple of wings on HS2 with it terminating at Ringway?

I've waited half an hour on a PIccadilly platform waiting for the train to Euston. Some days at Piccadilly are chaotic, some days it's fine. What is being said after HS2 arrives? Will it be one a day, three an hour and how does that impinge on what would become of the current Piccadilly-Euston service? Gets you in to the heart of Central London whilst the white elephant gets you somewhere over towards Camden?Old Oak/Chalk Farm with another ride on bus, taxi or tube? I've not heard a whisper!

 

[Chippy_boy]

the Victorians didn’t give a shit about anything, It was their way or no way. They’d bulldoze straigh through the middle of an eighth century castle if it was the most direct route. But the country was totally different, in both population and transportation

There is such a thing as a compulsory purchase order you know.

 

[Churchlawtonblue]

why add future capacity to a line that currently doens't need it when you could be adding capacity to lines that badly need it now?. the priorities are all wrong.

And if its freight capacity that is needed, why not add dedicated freight lines that dont necessarily need the high speed elements so could go very different and cheaper routes? that take freight off of the passenger lines?

As I say though, I've used this line for 30 odd years. and one observation i'll make is the vast majority of passengers from London->Manchester / London->Liverpool ( and vice versa ) dont get on at London and finish at the termination point. the get on later or off earlier. something HS2 doesn't address. its not the solution to the problem and money that could be getting spent on projects that need it now.

I take it you don't travel on the M6 that often , so.wont have seen the huge increase in traffic and especially HGVs the past 20years. Trust me its needed. But as ever with UK governments they ontinue to fail to deliver any meaningful capital transport schemes outside of London.

 

[dickie davies]

There is such a thing as a compulsory purchase order you know.

Yes I know, which is why John Bishop left his Manor house
But none of this was taken into account when HS2's costings were first produced, plus all the people who would fight against a project that would make their life a misery and substantially reduce the value of their home

 

[grunge]

I take it you don't travel on the M6 that often , so.wont have seen the huge increase in traffic and especially HGVs the past 20years. Trust me its needed. But as ever with UK governments they ontinue to fail to deliver any meaningful capital transport schemes outside of London.

When I do the M6 its usually the evening/weekend so probably dont see it at its peek no, But that being said, How does HS2 fix that issue?. all the trains that travel to sub stations along the west coast main line will still be there as there's a lot of demand for them. there would be capacity for some freight in at night when there are no passenger trains but all in all if Freight is the issue then dedicated freight lines would have been a far better and cheaper option.

Even HS2's own website says they will take 300,000 trucks worth of freight off the roads. over 3 years. so 300 a day. and that will be Best case. which isn't that much in the grand scheme of things.

 

[Brewster's millions]

why add future capacity to a line that currently doens't need it when you could be adding capacity to lines that badly need it now?. the priorities are all wrong.

And if its freight capacity that is needed, why not add dedicated freight lines that dont necessarily need the high speed elements so could go very different and cheaper routes? that take freight off of the passenger lines?

As I say though, I've used this line for 30 odd years. and one observation i'll make is the vast majority of passengers from London->Manchester / London->Liverpool ( and vice versa ) dont get on at London and finish at the termination point. the get on later or off earlier. something HS2 doesn't address. its not the solution to the problem and money that could be getting spent on projects that need it now.

Your last point is a very valid one, and in fact one which receives very little attention.

Other than the very early trains, there’s relatively few people who travel for the whole Manchester to London journey, and HS2 is in my view offering an incredibly expensive solution to a problem which never really existed. The need for numerous stops at key stations has never been properly addressed, chiefly because the advertised time savings and the perceived benefits would be greatly reduced.

 

[Kippax Street 1880]

Feel like this big white elephant has been rumbling on my entire adult life. Lots of people getting rich off the taxpayers expense.

 

[jrb]

MCC leaders looking for a compromise.

Place North West.

Manchester City Council Leader Bev Craig and GM Mayor Andy Burnham are “open” to conceding some ground in the short term in a bid to prevent the Prime Minister scrapping the Northern leg of the rail project entirely.

Manchester leaders propose HS2 workaround - Place North West

Manchester City Council Leader Bev Craig and GM Mayor Andy Burnham said they would be “open” to conceding some ground in the short term in a bid to prevent the Prime Minister scrapping the Northern leg of the rail project entirely.

www.placenorthwest.co.uk

 

[jrb]

However, writing in the Times, Mr Osborne and Lord Heseltine said scrapping the route to Manchester, and potentially a link between west London and Euston station, would be "an act of huge economic self-harm, and be a decision of such short-sightedness that we urge the prime minister: don't do it".
"How could you ever again claim to be levelling up when you cancel the biggest levelling-up project?", they wrote.

HS2: Backlash against scrapping Manchester rail link grows

Axing the high-speed rail leg would hit links between Liverpool, Manchester and Leeds, critics say.

www.bbc.co.uk

 

[Jimmieblue]

I take it you don't travel on the M6 that often , so.wont have seen the huge increase in traffic and especially HGVs the past 20years. Trust me its needed. But as ever with UK governments they ontinue to fail to deliver any meaningful capital transport schemes outside of London.

Absolutely this is needed. The M6 is well over capacity, people in the south are continuing to relocate north. HS2 was amazingly conceived out of long term thinking, a concept lacking for the north but not so for the south. Surely any thinking person who uses transport up here knows full well.

 

[Chippy_boy]

Yes I know, which is why John Bishop left his Manor house
But none of this was taken into account when HS2's costings were first produced, plus all the people who would fight against a project that would make their life a misery and substantially reduce the value of their home

I cannot believe that for 1 second. Sure, governments are incompetent but none of them are THAT incompetent.

Maybe they underestimated/under budgeted, but there's no way they didn't consider the costs of buying up the necessary land/properties. That would be like saying they forgot the cost of the track - it's unthinkable.

 

[TinFoilHat]

I cannot believe that for 1 second. Sure, governments are incompetent but none of them are THAT incompetent.

Maybe they underestimated/under budgeted, but there's no way they didn't consider the costs of buying up the necessary land/properties. That would be like saying they forgot the cost of the track - it's unthinkable.

Not if you just pick a sum out of the air and let your donor's takes billions of tax payers money for fuck all in return apart from party donations.

 

[Grassland Blue]

There was once talk of running a Eurostar service from Manchester to Paris/Brussels and beyond. There was even a shed built at Longsight to accommodate the trains. Cancelled.
There was a thing called the Advanced Passenger Train. This was a train at the sharp end of innovative rail tech. We could have had a high speed tilting electric train service 15 or so years before the Pendolino appeared. Cancelled.
There was the shortsighted decision to close the railway over Woodhead which could have formed the foundations of either a high speed rail route, or an alternative route for freight services. Abandoned.
Now we have the HS2 cancellation into Manchester.
When are politicians going to stop taking the p out of Manchester?

 

[MillionMilesAway]

Absolutely everyone involved in the scheme seems to have said that it wasn't worth starting without the Northern bits.

Knowing it would start in the South, this was supposedly hammered home - If you start there, you CAN'T cancel the rest as most of the payback is due to the Northern sections. If you're considering cancelling them, don't start the fucking thing in the first place.

So, what do they do?

I thought it was quite well-known that Birmingham-Euston would be about 10-15 minutes shorter due to slow speed in urban areas and the time to speed up and slow down. Abandoning the link to Euston makes the whole thing untenable.

As you say, it needed the northern links to be significantly useful for speed savings.

I've seen comments that it would free other lines for freight - that again requires passengers to use it, and stopping miles from Euston won't do that.

They knocked down a very good pub near Euston too!

 

[Chippy_boy]

Not if you just pick a sum out of the air and let your donor's takes billions of tax payers money for fuck all in return apart from party donations.

Come off it mate, they will have had an absolute army of civil servants and external consultants being paid a fortune to come up with the plans and costings. The planning costs alone will have run into tens of millions. It is absolutely inconceivable that they just "forgot" the cost of the required land/property purchases. It's a ludicrous suggestion.

 

[MillionMilesAway]

Technically Crossrail was much more challenging. Tunnelling across parts of London, lots of very complex interfaces to manage etc. HS2 was needlessly made more complicated than was necessary due to the route being designed by committee. Lots of limitations were imposed by politicians due to pressure from voters and nimbys in the home counties so that they didnt lose votes.

The french pretty much draw a line and build the railway we fuck about for ages trying to satisfy every individual.

If they do cancel it, I would hope that the money is ring fenced for the north, as once again we've been short changed after being promised the so called Northern Powerhouse which now seems dead in the water.

France is bigger and emptier which makes building much easier there.

If Sunak announced a ringfence as you suggest (which makes sense to me), would anyone believe him?

 

[Churchlawtonblue]

When I do the M6 its usually the evening/weekend so probably dont see it at its peek no, But that being said, How does HS2 fix that issue?. all the trains that travel to sub stations along the west coast main line will still be there as there's a lot of demand for them. there would be capacity for some freight in at night when there are no passenger trains but all in all if Freight is the issue then dedicated freight lines would have been a far better and cheaper option.

Even HS2's own website says they will take 300,000 trucks worth of freight off the roads. over 3 years. so 300 a day. and that will be Best case. which isn't that much in the grand scheme of things.

HS2 had the capability to free up the overall rail network for another 144 freight trains a day with each train taking 72 hgvs off the road. I genuinely don't get the anti HS2 sentiments at all expecially by people who live in the North.

 

[MillionMilesAway]

Cancel and give the councils the cash

A breakdown of what's spent, what's promised and what's saved seems to be useful to me.

 

[Kompany Car]

If Sunak announced a ringfence as you suggest (which makes sense to me), would anyone believe him?

No, its obvious that the only thing politicians are interested in is their own survival.

If they dont spend the money on HS2 they wont spend it somewhere else that benefits the majority. The money will go to their inheritance tax cut (worth at least 7.2Bn) which plays well to their traditional supporters. Nothing more than a bribe, ensuring that they still retain some seats after the next election.

 

[MillionMilesAway]

No, its obvious that the only thing politicians are interested in is their own survival.

If they dont spend the money on HS2 they wont spend it somewhere else that benefits the majority. The money will go to their inheritance tax cut (worth at least 7.2Bn) which plays well to their traditional supporters. Nothing more than a bribe, ensuring that they still retain some seats after the next election.

pretty much.
Of course, anything they say at the moment about future spending is meaningless as it's extremely unlikely that they'll be in power.