Middle East Conflict

I know there are many stories like this but the one one the mail right now breaks my heart. A family with 3 children aged 6 and 2 hiding in their bunker text friends to say they are safe only to be shot dead an hr later. What kind of monster shoots 3 scared children in cold blood in their own home, after making them watch their parents die, fucking barbaric.
 
Prestwich_Blue said:
Yes it is. That solution would only work for Gaza. I think it was proposed at the time of the Oslo Accords that Israel would keep some settlements close to the pre-1967 borders and swap those for some land inside those borders. But that was when more rational and pragmatic heads prevailed, rather than the right-wing lunatics now running Israel.
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Is Gaza even sustainable as an independent state?
 
Blue and true said:
There are no winners in this. It's painfully ironic that for all the intellectual and technological progress humanity has made, religion is the one thing that will bring it all down.
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You are not the first one to bring religion up, and you couldn't be more wrong if you think this is about religion, believe it or not Israel is a very secular country , Jewish traditions are strong but most people do not attend a synagogue, in fact many of the early Zionists were avowed atheists! There PLO and many of the splinter groups is/were not religious groups, in fact some members were Arab Christians rather than Muslim

It's far too easy and simplistic to blame religion, try poverty and hopelessness on behalf of the Palestinians, if people have no hope for a better life death is not a bad option, in fact I remember an Israeli phycologist saying that happy content people don't rush off to their certain death
 
Ducado said:
You are not the first one to bring religion up, and you couldn't be more wrong if you think this is about religion, believe it or not Israel is a very secular country , Jewish traditions are strong but most people do not attend a synagogue, in fact many of the early Zionists were avowed atheists! There PLO and many of the splinter groups is/were not religious groups, in fact some members were Arab Christians rather than Muslim

It's far too easy and simplistic to blame religion, try poverty and hopelessness on behalf of the Palestinians, if people have no hope for a better life death is not a bad option, in fact I remember an Israeli phycologist saying that happy content people don't rush off to their certain death
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Great post. But I would argue the foundations of this perpetual conflict are indeed religion. Whatever subtexts have arisen since, it's heart has always been religion.
 
Bluemoon_420 said:
No, they’ve just been doing it for 75+ years.

Just a small snippet of recent IDF crimes committed against children:

www.hrw.org

West Bank: Spike in Israeli Killings of Palestinian Children

The Israeli military and border police forces are killing Palestinian children with virtually no recourse for accountability.
www.hrw.org www.hrw.org

bennorton.com

40% of Palestinian Children Detained by Israel Sexually Abused; Virtually All Tortured

According to a November report by the independent, non-governmental, human rights organization the Palestinian Prisoners Club (PPC), at least 600 Palestinian children have been arrested in Jerusalem alone in the past five months. Of these, roughly 40% were sexually abused. PPC attorney Mufeed...
bennorton.com bennorton.com

This doesn’t even take into account the countless atrocities committed on many thousands that have been murdered via bombs, killed during protests, settler attacks or entire villages wiped out during the Nakba.
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I checked the credentials of the author of your second link. He’s tweeted a lot in the last few days and not once mentioned the mass murder of civilians by Hamas on Saturday morning. The link refers to an article from 2014 by a source that looks very much like Palestinian propaganda.

I’m not defending any criminal actions by the IDF but I am certainly questioning the truth of your second source.
 
trueblue1972 said:
There are crimes from both sides , the fact you can't acknowledge that says more about who and what you are
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I can fully acknowledge the crimes that Hamas commit and have committed and whilst I don’t condone the killing of any innocent, I am not surprised that this was the reaction after 75 years of brutal occupation. From the bottom of my heart I wish they could find a different way, but what did Israel expect would happen with their treatment of Palestinians from the Nakba to now? I wouldn’t expect anyone in this country to stand for it, why do we expect the Palestinians to do so? Should the Ukrainians not fight back against Russia?

The two links I provided are just a snippet of what the Palestinians have endured for the past century.

There is only one side in this that can be considered the oppressor and the other the oppressed.
 
Blue and true said:
Great post. But I would argue the foundations of this perpetual conflict are indeed religion. Whatever subtexts have arisen since, it's heart has always been religion.
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I disagree, you have two races of people both are semetic, I can't see were religion is a causation factor in any of it, in fact prior to the 1990's the split was very political (one side backed by the Soviet Union and the Other by the West) the different religions the protagonists were born into never came into it
 
Bluemoon_420 said:
I can fully acknowledge the crimes that Hamas commit and have committed and whilst I don’t condone the killing of any innocent, I am not surprised that this was the reaction after 75 years of brutal occupation. The two links I provided are just a snippet of what the Palestinians have endured for the past century.

There is only one side in this that can be considered the oppressor and the other the oppressed.
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Not from this point but during those 75 years
Maybe I live in cloud cuckoo land but id like to think that if Isreal has been left alone after its formation we would not have this issue , but that has never been.the case , they have been under almost constant attack. When this happens, you naturally end up with more right-wing government .
Does this excuse some of the actions they have taken? No it doesn't, but your 75 years of oppression doesn't take into account what has happened from the other side during that time .
I have been consistent in saying its a shit show from both sides
 
trueblue1972 said:
Not from this point but during those 75 years
Maybe I live in cloud cuckoo land but id like to think that if Isreal has been left alone after its formation we would not have this issue , but that has never been.the case , they have been under almost constant attack. When this happens, you naturally end up with more right-wing government .
Does this excuse some of the actions they have taken? No it doesn't, but your 75 years of oppression doesn't take into account what has happened from the other side during that time .
I have been consistent in saying its a shit show from both sides
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But why would the Palestinians ‘leave them alone’. Why should the Palestinians have been made to pay with their land because of Europes anti-semitic crimes. Why would they leave them alone as during the course of those 75 years more and more land has been systematically stolen, whilst countless innocents have been brutalised and murdered. All the while the rest of the world sat back and has allowed it to happen with zero recourse for the perpetrators? Where has diplomacy got them in the past 75 years?
 
Bluemoon_420 said:
But why would the Palestinians ‘leave them alone’. Why should the Palestinians have been made to pay with their land because of Europes anti-semitic crimes. Why would they leave them alone as during the course of those 75 years more and more land has been systematically stolen, whilst countless innocents have been brutalised and murdered. All the while the rest of the world sat back and has allowed it to happen with zero recourse for the perpetrators? Where has diplomacy got them in the past 75 years?
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For a peacefull existence maybe ?
For clarification my response is just to the first question , im not going to reply to any of the rest as you obviously believe that Isreal should have been wiped out and not tried to defend itself
 
Blue and true said:
There are no winners in this. It's painfully ironic that for all the intellectual and technological progress humanity has made, religion is the one thing that will bring it all down.
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Nah, if it wasn't religion it would be something else tribal. That's the nature of the beast. Even this conflict isn't about theological differences.
 
Prestwich_Blue said:
The solution to this particular mess is, theoretically at least, straightforward. Like Israel has with the Gulf States, the three sides (Israel, Egypt & Hamas) get talking, under the auspices of a neutral party.

  • Hamas agrees to recognise Israel and cease military and other attacks.
  • Israel recognises Hamas as the appointed representative of the people of Gaza (I doubt there's any prospect of free and fair elections in the short term).
  • Israel & Egypt agree to open the border, maybe under neutral supervision initially, and relax controls.
  • Investment from the US, EU, China, India etc is directed to improve the lives of the people of Gaza and make them self-sufficient.
  • Arab countries agree to offer citizenship to anyone who doesn't want to remain in Gaza.
  • After a period of time, say 5 years, Israel recognises Gaza as an independent state.
But theory and practice are, unfortunately two different things. If Hamas genuinely wanted a free, independent Gaza, they could have had that by now. But their current aim is the destruction of Israel.
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Would Israel watering down the right of Jewish return and taking in some friendly Gazans into Israel proper also go someway to building some common ground?
 
trueblue1972 said:
For a peacefull existence maybe ?
For clarification my response is just to the first question , im not going to reply to any of the rest as you obviously believe that Isreal should have been wiped out and not tried to defend itself
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You can't subjugate, beat and oppress a peoples and expect no reaction. That's the fairy tale here - that you can behave that way and expect them to take it lying down. These people have nothing - no hope, no freedom, and no security. They would rather die on their feet fighting then be subjugated.

There needs to be international intervention, and the UN needs to hold Israel to account for breaking the numerous international laws and Geneva convention protocols.
 
Bluemoon_420 said:
You can't subjugate, beat and oppress a peoples and expect no reaction. That's the fairy tale here - that you can behave that way and expect them to take it lying down. These people have nothing - no hope, no freedom, and no security. They would rather die on their feet fighting then be subjugated.

There needs to be international intervention, and the UN needs to hold Israel to account for breaking the numerous international laws and Geneva convention protocols.
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What would you have the UN do with Hamas as part of this intervention?
 
blueinsa said:
What would you have the UN do with Hamas as part of this intervention?
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Disband them and prosecute them for their crimes along with the IDF and settler terrorists. But this is just fairy tale stuff as we all know one side is immune to any form of prosecution.
 
Bluemoon_420 said:
Disband them and prosecute them for their crimes along with the IDF and setteller terrorists. But this is just fairy tale stuff as we all know one side is immune to any form of prosecution.
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I’d say both are immune given Hamas leadership are all living a nice life in Qatar.
 
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