Middle East Conflict

same could be said about all the friends of Israel groups that have come out waving Israeli flags after previous massacres in Gaza. I’ve witnessed a former IDF soldier boasting about killing children and laughing about it. There’s scum bag elements on both sides of the debate, but one side seems to get an easy pass from the media in this country. No outcry whatsoever at the friends of Israel celebrating and justifying the murder of innocent civilians. If there is please show me.
Rather than going down the rabbit hole of pointing out that previous “massacres” in Gaza are always as a response to action by Hamas or Islamic Jihad and are targeted at known Hamas targets I’ll leave it there.
 
Wash all you want, it does not change what is supposedly the 'immutable' word of god that is written, taught, and followed by many. Hamas even use it in their charter !
Most Muslims don't care for the extremist agenda of Hamas. What they want is the Palestinians to have a sovereign and independent state. When that happens, Hamas will have as much support as ISIS, i.e practically none.
 
possibly? Thats a big judgement to make
Note the text on the banner in the first few seconds of this video.

If they don't support Hamas resistance (obviously because yes of course they don't support terrorists) then who is the Palestinian resistance that they decided to turn out to support on one random Saturday afternoon?

Also note the freedom fighter support banner about halfway through the video, I'll let you decide the possibly....

 
I’m not thrilled at the idea but I am also of the opinion that Hezbolla would last about ten minutes if they wanted to serious have a go at Israel.
I think previous experience begs to differ, they are a well trained and well armed militia, and there is a grudging respect on the Israeli side for them, a kind of stalemate exists which has worked to prevent any flare ups, the fear is they have a huge arsenal of long range missiles, and seriously the IDF would find it very difficult to fight on 3 fronts because you can guarantee if it kicks of in the north it will kick off in the west bank
 
Note the text on the banner in the first few seconds of this video.

If they don't support Hamas resistance (obviously because yes of course they don't support terrorists) then who is the Palestinian resistance that they decided to turn out to support on one random Saturday afternoon?

Also note the freedom fighter support banner about halfway through the video, I'll let you decide the possibly....





Just like the pro Israel marches of people laughing and stating they want Palestine wiped off the face of the planet.

Do you think every single person in that Rally at Piccadilly Gardens is a Hamas sympathiser like several posters have suggested.
 
I think previous experience begs to differ, they are a well trained and well armed militia, and there is a grudging respect on the Israeli side for them, a kind of stalemate exists which has worked to prevent any flare ups, the fear is they have a huge arsenal of long range missiles, and seriously the IDF would find it very difficult to fight on 3 fronts because you can guarantee if it kicks of in the north it will kick off in the west bank

A full on conflict on 3 effective borders would undoubtedly drag the US into the conflict imo.
 


Just like the pro Israel marches of people laughing and stating they want Palestine wiped off the face of the planet.

Do you think every single person in that Rally at Piccadilly Gardens is a Hamas sympathiser like several posters have suggested.

Yeah and they're just as disgusting and I'm not going to defend them. I condemn both equally.

I've said many times that my view is there needs to be a negotiation and two-state solution.
 


Just like the pro Israel marches of people laughing and stating they want Palestine wiped off the face of the planet.

Do you think every single person in that Rally at Piccadilly Gardens is a Hamas sympathiser like several posters have suggested.

They obviously didn’t have a problem with the terrorist attack on Saturday or they either wouldn’t have gone on Sunday or made it clear it wasn’t in their name.
 
Rather than going down the rabbit hole of pointing out that previous “massacres” in Gaza are always as a response to action by Hamas or Islamic Jihad and are targeted at known Hamas targets I’ll leave it there.
Don’t know whether you’re being disingenuous or blinded by your support of Israel but how would describe the murder of the 189 during the great March of return in 2018. Was that a Hamas attack too??? That’s just one example of many unprovoked murders.
 
A full on conflict on 3 effective borders would undoubtedly drag the US into the conflict imo.

Yeah. A full scale engagement with Hezbolla would likely mean some form of US involvement albeit limited to air and naval support rather than ground troops. If it remains limited to skirmishes then maybe not.

According to some accounts Hezbolla leadership is not enthusiastic about engagement, but events on the ground may drag then in whether they like it or not.

Situations like this have a habit of spiralling out of control.
 
Don’t know whether you’re being disingenuous or blinded by your support of Israel but how would describe the murder of the 189 during the great March of return in 2018. Was that a Hamas attack too??? That’s just one example of many unprovoked murders.
I wouldn’t call it murder for one thing. There’s no doubt that the IDF were heavy handed but when protesters including many Hamas operatives attempt to breach the border fence and end up getting killed, it’s not really comparable to getting shot for attending a music festival or having someone break into your house and murder your whole family.
 
A full on conflict on 3 effective borders would undoubtedly drag the US into the conflict imo.
I don't think they actually will, because that would be exactly what Putin and Iran would want, like I said wars in the Middle East are easy to start but very hard to stop, and the US record in the Middle East has not exactly been good, and would it help in the long term? What would essentially be an urban war that would light up the whole of the region

However that's a little apocalyptic, I don't think it will come to that we are just going through the normal blood letting cycle that is destined to repeat itself time and time again until the US finally gets off its arse and makes the Israelis and Palestinians sit down and thrash out a solution, the US provides all the funding to one party and big chunk to the other
 
Yet the Saudis were formally arranging diplomatic relations with Isreal until the events of this weekend. (more a case of building alliances against Iran than of being friends is my guess)

Bluster matters not, the passages inciting violence, and hatred are still there, and are still being used, and cannot be changed. They can't even be 'reeled back' because of abrogation where the earlier passages of peace are replaced (for all time) by the later passages.

Middle Eastern politics tends to be utterly cynical, so that wouldn't surprise me.

As for the passages you refer to, it's true that they can't be changed. But they are open to different interpretations.

Mainstream Islamic teaching, for example, maintains that in the earliest sources from which Islamic teachings are derived, the Qur’an and stories about the sunna, the records of the example set by Prophet Muhammad, jihad is connected with another Arabic word, sabr, which is associated with patiently and non-violently resisting wrongdoing. In the early years of Islam, this is how Muhammad and the first Muslims dealt with the harsh treatment they received from members of their own tribe. They didn’t respond with violence. They just put up with it.

Only later, when Muhammad and his early Muslim companions moved to Medina was the term qital or ‘fighting’ introduced, and here it is made quite clear that Muslims were only allowed to fight to protect themselves (and also non-Muslims who had been attacked) from the prospect of being wiped out. Furthermore, if the enemy stops fighting, Muslims were then required to do so themselves and make peace.

So if you are facing an existential threat, you are permitted to defend yourself.

When it comes to specific verses, their meaning is often contestable. For example, verse 3:151 reads ‘We will put terror into the hearts of the unbelievers….Hell shall be their home.’

Sounds pretty emphatic. However, another way of looking at the verse is in terms of its specific context. It was given to Muhammad just before an important battle, when the early Muslims faced a much stronger enemy. He was worried about the outcome and Allah was basically reassuring him that things would go well. So it was never meant to be a rule for all later Muslims to follow.

Unsurprisingly, the principle of abrogation (naskh) that you refer to has been severely criticised by both early and modern Muslim scholars. One example is the Syrian scholar Wahba al-Zuhayli, who has taken issue with the position that Qur'an 9:5 abrogates 124 other Quranic verses which preach peaceful solutions to conflicts. Here, al-Zuhayli seems to be taking up the position that the Qur'an has to be read holistically, and that the cumulative message is one of seeking peace and only resorting to the use of violence in extremis. Another response has been to explain 9:5 as being context specific. It refers only to Arab polytheist idolaters who were seeking to wipe out the early Muslims, as has already been suggested.

Of course, Salafi-jihadists have their own way of looking at things. Once again, I like what Adam Silverstein says about this in his little book on Islamic history. The additions in square brackets are my own;

'[A] lenient interpretation [of the relevant passages] will certainly appeal to the overwhelming majority of Muslims, for whom jihad is a personal battle against temptation, and who will be drawn into warfare only when provoked by those threatening Islam itself. And even then, innocents will be spared [this is due to rules laid down by the first Caliph Abu Bakr that are remarkably similar to those found in the later Just War tradition of Christianity].....But to extremists, Islam is under attack, a defensive jihad is necessary, and those non-combatants who were killed in the attacks were not innocent at all - in democracies voters bear full responsibility for their government's actions (in this case, Britain's aggression (as they see it) against Muslims in Iraq and Afghanistan)'.

In summary, I reckon that if you have a large enough body of scripture you can inevitably find justifications for your own agenda and causes.

For example, some of the violence perpetrated by Japan in WW2 was justified in terms of a pragmatic Buddhist scriptural concept called upaya-kausalya. Violent manifestations of Christian Liberation Theology also find their justification in a passage from Luke's gospel about 'setting free the oppressed.'

Gush Emunim are no longer around but they would, I imagine, have based their ideology on conceptions of the land of Israel having been given to them by God. And the US anti-abortion movement 'Army of God' (responsible for 8 murders, 41 explosions and 173 arson attacks that caused hundreds of abortion clinics to close in the 1980's and 90's) invoke the 'suffer little children' Biblical passage to justify their actions.

One thing that is clear is that Salafi-jihadists absolutely contort themselves to find theological justifications for what they get up to. As Shiraz Maher puts it in his seminal study, 'The violence of groups like al-Qaeda and associated movements is neither irrational nor whimsical. For every act of violence, they will offer some form of reference to scriptural sources - however tenuous, esoteric or contested - to explain their actions.' It's their perverse way of trying to capture hearts and minds, I suppose.

But anyway, I've got to get on.

If there is something I learned from teaching Religious Studies as an academic subject for so long, it's that it is usually the puritans & literalists within a faith who cause all the problems.

Maybe that's why the irreverent Sufi Muslim poet Hafiz once made this haiku-like observation:

‘The great religions are the ships,
Poets the lifeboats,
Every sane person I know, Has jumped overboard.’
 
The Palestinians have been persecuted for years fact

Yes. And so have the Jews for centuries.

To be honest, I see no mileage in this game of ‘tragic top trumps’. Both sides have grievances and to date killing each other over them has yielded the square root of fuck all apart from more deaths.

At some point both sides are going to have to stop the doom cycle and that means looking forward and not to the past. And yeah, easier said than done, I know.
 
Yeah and they're just as disgusting and I'm not going to defend them. I condemn both equally.

I've said many times that my view is there needs to be a negotiation and two-state solution.

So its just the ones at the weekend in Support of Palestine that are Hamas Supporters? Or even the Ones which are currently protesting with their Palestinian Flags, are they the same?
 
They should use the Antarctic as a battlefield, any leaders that want to kick off should send their families there to sort it out like WWE. Fed up of innocent people being dragged into fucking bullshit
 
I don't think they actually will, because that would be exactly what Putin and Iran would want, like I said wars in the Middle East are easy to start but very hard to stop, and the US record in the Middle East has not exactly been good, and would it help in the long term? What would essentially be an urban war that would light up the whole of the region

However that's a little apocalyptic, I don't think it will come to that we are just going through the normal blood letting cycle that is destined to repeat itself time and time again until the US finally gets off its arse and makes the Israelis and Palestinians sit down and thrash out a solution, the US provides all the funding to one party and big chunk to the other

Biden has already issued a warning to Iran and Hezbolla to stay out of this. If the latter do get involved in a significant way then the US has to back up that warning. Likely, it will be a carrier group providing air and missile support rather than ground troops.

Agree on the funding. The only outside country with any political heft in this conflict is the US.
 
They obviously didn’t have a problem with the terrorist attack on Saturday or they either wouldn’t have gone on Sunday or made it clear it wasn’t in their name.

There's currently hundreds of children killed in the Gaza Strip, If those numbers escalate to thousands of Children through being blown up or starvation do you think Israelis should be out on the street waving their Flags/Banners?
 

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