Middle East Conflict

Prestwich_Blue said:
I criticised your post and your twisted thinking, not you (which is probably just as well I didn't because I know what I'd have called you).

I answered a post some pages ago in response to your fellow traveller, the only one who seems to like your post, criticising his narrative that boatloads of armed Jews suddenly turned up out of the blue. I think what most rational, educated people realise is that the situation is very complex and that you can lay the blame at both communities and the cynical colonial powers that took the decisions they did.
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The twisted thinking being, in your opinion, that I pointed out that there is a historical chain of events that have led to the events of last Saturday.
The fact that the Gazans have been blockaded, deprived, attacked and "kept on a diet" for at least the last decade and half is what has led to this.
When you drive people to desperation it is desperate acts that they will do.
There are many parallels with the situation in the Warsaw ghetto ( the victims of which I also sympathise with regardless of what you were going to call me but didn't ) which also resulted in an uprising which resulted in a casualty ratio similar to what we are about to witness in Gaza.
I think the Jews of the Warsaw ghetto were absolutely right to fight their oppressors in 1943 just as I think the Palestinians of the Gaza ghetto are right to fight their oppressors in 2023.
Have a read of this and see what you think.

Putting Palestinians "On a Diet": Israel's Siege & Blockade of Gaza | IMEU

The Institute for Middle East Understanding (IMEU) is a non-profit organization that offers journalists facts, analysis, experts, and digital resources about Palestine and Palestinians.
imeu.org imeu.org
 
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mexico1970 said:
Likening Jews to Nazis and then likening Palestinians to Jews who suffered the utmost horrors of Nazi liquidation is astonishingly evil thinking.

Some people on this thread just can't hide their visceral hatred for Jews.
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Amazing that you've posted this on the same page as someone who's just stated he wants to Nuke Palestine with the almost certain deaths of 2 Million people. Unless yet again like others have on here, You simply missed his post?
 
mexico1970 said:
Likening Jews to Nazis and then likening Palestinians to Jews who suffered the utmost horrors of Nazi liquidation is astonishingly evil thinking.

Some people on this thread just can't hide their visceral hatred for Jews.
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Buts it’s ok to talk about the destruction of Palestine and the slaughter of untold thousands which has been going in for years . Hamas commited mass murder at the weekend but Israel have also been doing it aswell . Both sides are as bad as each other .
 
The Stockport Iniesta said:
I've just been reading a Q&A article with Martin Indyk. His belief is that Hamas intention with the attack was to get Israel to react massively, and then have the conflict escalate. Hezbollah in Lebanon, a West Bank uprising, a revolt in Jerusalem. Hezbollah will be the main one as apparently they have 150,000 rocket's they can launch into Israel, and would mean all out war in the Lebanon.
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And behind the scenes Tehran watches
 
The blue phantom said:
Amazing that you've posted this on the same page as someone who's just stated he wants to Nuke Palestine with the almost certain deaths of 2 Million people. Unless yet again like others have on here, You simply missed his post?
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Not to mention the tired old trope of pretending any criticism of the Israeli regime is an attack on all Jews.

Many of them will scream anti-Semitism at every turn but will either stick their fingers in their ears or openly ridicule you the second you do something like, say, point out the perpetuation of harmful stereotypes of black people in modern society.

I've been watching them do it for years. Same people every time. Their sensitivity goes in one direction.
 
When you strip away the politicians and terrorists, peaceful people on both sides are the ones who are losing family members, safety, security, resources, and the love of life. Under such circumstances, peaceful people will often blame others, and will support action taken against others, but this is a longstanding and deeply traumatic situation. The actions of Hamas are worthy of condemnation and outrage. The context cannot be ignored, and, thankfully, many are now, at least out of the mainstream, considering the plight of the people. It is a shame that any support for the people of Palestine is often labelled anti-Semitic, in an attempt to close down the debate. Equally, support for the people of Israel is often labelled as ignoring the plight of people in Gaza. You can condemn the act of terrorists while being aware of the wider issues.

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Tugay One Cup said:
Not to mention the tired old trope of pretending any criticism of the Israeli regime is an attack on all Jews.

Many of them will scream anti-Semitism at every turn but will either stick their fingers in their ears or openly ridicule you the second you do something like, say, point out the perpetuation of harmful stereotypes of black people in modern society.

I've been watching them do it for years. Same people every time. Their sensitivity goes in one direction.
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I think several posters like PB (top guy) have made valid points about the history of the conflict. That includes Arab nations scoring more own goals than Richard Dunne in losing Palestinian land in wars with Israel. It’s wrong to compare Israel with the Nazis.

What I object to is the double standards of a minority of posters who, for example, tell us that all the hatred is from the Palestinians but turn a blind eye to people trying to flee Gaza (on Netanyahu’s instructions)) getting bombed by the IDF. Everyone has their opinions of course but when these zealots turn full Goody Proctor and scream racism when anybody doesn’t completely agree with them, that’s a bit low.

We had a family friend who had been a US Marine and then fought with the Irgun. I can’t never remember him ranting on about hatred of Arabs. I think he saw himself as doing a soldier’s job. Maybe the generations that came after the wars do more of the hate talk.

There’s been comments about the rise of scummy anti-semitisim. As I have said before, I think we live in a very reasonable and tolerant country (in the main). I remember a few years back an item on the national news about thugs making racist slurs about Jewish kids on a bus. That’s the national news. That’s hardly hardly a society turning a blind eye to anti-semitism.
 
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BlueHammer85 said:
If most normal western person feels sick in the stomach watching what’s happening in Gaza right now then god knows how the Arab/Muslims will be feeling. No wonder it’s a never ending cycle.
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Ask yourself this.

Had Hamas not committed one of the worlds biggest terrorist attacks on Saturday morning, what you’re seeing in Gaza right now wouldn’t be happening.

Want to blame someone?

Blame Hamas and its leadership who couldn’t give a fuck about its people it’s pretends to represent. It uses them for political capital and nothing more. It controls the $Billions of dollars in aid that goes in, diverts most of it for itself, buys weapons rather than using it for good, I could go on.

Nobody wants to see civilians being killed, no one, that is other than Hamas and its fighters who set out to do just that the other day.
 
blueinsa said:
Ask yourself this.

Had Hamas not committed one of the worlds biggest terrorist attacks on Saturday morning, what you’re seeing in Gaza right now wouldn’t be happening.

Want to blame someone?

Blame Hamas and its leadership who couldn’t give a fuck about its people it’s pretends to represent. It uses them for political capital and nothing more. It controls the $Billions of dollars in aid that goes in, diverts most of it for itself, buys weapons rather than using it for good, I could go on.

Nobody wants to see civilians being killed, no one, that is other than Hamas and its fighters who set out to do just that the other day.
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It isn't that simple. Have a read of this academic report:


It summarises that both Palestine and Israel feel that they retaliate to acts of aggression by the other.
"Over one half of Israelis* and three quarters of Palestinians† think the other side seeks to take over their land. When accounting for their own acts of aggression, Israelis often claim to be merely responding to Palestinian violence (1–3), and Palestinians often see themselves as simply reacting to Israeli violence (4–6)."
 
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MouldensChippy said:
For all of that bluster, they don't have to look too far, or esoterically in the Koran for their excuses to hate, and kill Jews. It's there, and as straight forward as it gets.

Unfortunately, it is used and acted upon by a violent minority.
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Once I'd checked that Paul Moulden had opened a chippy (had to look), your reply got me thinking: has anyone ever decided that a passage in a sacred text 'is as straightforward as it gets'' and repudiated it?

Qur'an 4v34 is just such a passage because it appears to sanction domestic violence.

I have pages and pages of exegesis on it. Understandably Muslim feminist writers aren't impressed, and a mate of mine got treated to a 20 minute disquisition on this āyah when he interviewed Shaykh Abdal Hakim Murad up at Oxford University. The Shaykh is also known as Tim Winter and is the brother of the sports writer Henry Winter.

But in her unflinching opposition to the passage, the Muslim feminist author Amina Wadud wrote, 'I have come to say 'no' outright to the literal implementation of this passage.' She continues, 'this verse, and the literal interpretation of hudud (penal code) both imply an ethical standard of human actions that are archaic and barbaric at this time in history.'

This is the only example of a Muslim scholar rejecting some of the Qur'an that I know of.

But a lot of (usually educated) European Muslims are also repelled by the notorious hudud punishments and do not identify with them in any way.

Meanwhile, in Christianity, there's Richard Holloway, the former Bishop of Edinburgh. He reckons that if a passage in the Bible looks like it's a load of bollocks, you should just ignore it. While still in post, he wrote this book:

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Of course, that didn't go down well and he eventually left the Church in disgust at its homophobia.

Just thought it was worth a mention.
 
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blueinsa said:
The scale of war we are now seeing, the devastation and death is a direct result of actions Hamas took on Saturday.
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Of course, but this is not the first action by Hamas, nor by Israel. Viewing this incident in isolation is unrealistic. Have a read of the report I posted - it was not possible to have replied as quickly as you did if you had read the report.
If you just keep taking it back, Israel will now retaliate and they will blame the attack by Hamas, which you have, Hamas will then blame the killing of Palestinians and the seizure of land, and the control of movement, etc. Israel will then say that is essential because of the attacks...it goes on and on and on.
 
oldius said:
Of course, but this is not the first action by Hamas, nor by Israel. Viewing this incident in isolation is unrealistic. Have a read of the report I posted - it was not possible to have replied as quickly as you did if you had read the report.
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Given the scale of destruction and death and what is undoubtedly to come, I feel it’s more than fair to look at this and discuss it in some form of isolation.

We are about to see full scale war in the Middle East imo and the direct trigger for that was Hamas and its attack.
 
blueinsa said:
The scale of war we are now seeing, the devastation and death is a direct result of actions Hamas took on Saturday.
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Of course it is, however one can not argue that the degree of suppression of the Palestinian people has not got something to do with it

The violence is but a symptom of much deeper problems, problems that have been ignored especially by the US, the US has just sat back whilst settlement’s were expanded and the daily violence inflicted on Palestinians

The problem is many people don’t look at this in a wholistic way, until the route cause is dealt with this cycle of violence will just keep going and the horror continue

People who believe in one camp or another especially on here, need to metaphorically speaking “sit in the middle “ and look at it from both sides, there is no Israel good Palestinians bad or the other way round

As the famous sage Rumi put it

Out beyond ideas of wrongdoing and rightdoing, There is a field. I'll meet you there.
 
blueinsa said:
Given the scale of destruction and death and what is undoubtedly to come, I feel it’s more than fair to look at this and discuss it in some form of isolation.

We are about to see full scale war in the Middle East imo and the direct trigger for that was Hamas and its attack.
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Have you read the report yet?
 
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