Mr Bates vs the Post Office

[Dubai Blue]

Surely the DPP should have noticed a problem with relying on computer evidence for an excess number of PO prosecutions on previous years?
Oh, and guess who was in charge of the DPP at the time of most of the tranches of criminal prosecutions - one Kier Starmer.

I thought the Post Office completely bypassed the CPS (which the DPP oversees) and carried out the prosecutions themselves?

 

[East Level 2]

I thought the Post Office completely bypassed the CPS (which the DPP oversees) and carried out the prosecutions themselves?

That was implied by the TV programme and documentary, but were complaints made to the DPP, and if so, would they have been able to intervene or even raise the issue with the Post Office or ministers?

 

[bluethrunthru]

I thought the Post Office completely bypassed the CPS (which the DPP oversees) and carried out the prosecutions themselves?

They - like the RSPCA - have the powers to prosecute without any need to refer to the CPS. That goes back over 100 years in both cases and I suspect could come under review. I think that nobody would accept that any body in this day and age should be judge and jury over alleged crimes that come under their jurisdiction

 

[BlueAnorak]

Have no sympathy whatsoever for your number 1. How can you not suspect something is wrong when what looks like a large group of you workers turning criminal coincides with the introduction of new software. Last time I was involved with a rollout of new software it was run in tandem with the old one to spot issues. Yes it meant everything had to be processed twice but it saved a fortune.

The only sympathy I have is that she will carry the can for many others who are equally responsible.
Adam Crozier, for example, has a huge responsibility when the Post Office was part of Royal Mail - somehow not mentioned in the TV drama - probably due to being the ex chairman of ITV recently with friends at ITV!

 

[BlueAnorak]

I thought the Post Office completely bypassed the CPS (which the DPP oversees) and carried out the prosecutions themselves?

Yes - Ive balled up my cresponse here.
As I understand it, I maybe wrong, but from what I have read the DPP still has some responsibility - especially if complaints are made - and there were a good few of those.

 

[Dubai Blue]

They - like the RSPCA - have the powers to prosecute without any need to refer to the CPS. That goes back over 100 years in both cases and I suspect could come under review. I think that nobody would accept that any body in this day and age should be judge and jury over alleged crimes that come under their jurisdiction

Thanks. It seems that whoever oversees the PO's prosecutions should be getting the blame then, not Starmer (who agrees with what you've just said):

Sir Keir, speaking on a visit in Loughborough, in the East Midlands, said: “I think that the prosecution should be taken out of the hands of the Post Office and given to the Crown Prosecution Service.

“I used to run the Crown Prosecution Service, we’ve prosecuted for other departments, we can do it here – that should be done straight away."

 

[Dubai Blue]

That was implied by the TV programme and documentary, but were complaints made to the DPP, and if so, would they have been able to intervene or even raise the issue with the Post Office or ministers?

Whoever was DPP in January 2020 did refer the PO to the Met for the potential offenses of perjury and perverting the course of justice. They've interviewed a whopping two people about it in the intervening years!

 

[gordondaviesmoustache]

As I understand it, the DPP led on the Criminal Prosecutions. The PO ran with the Civil Prosecusions

There is no such thing as a civil prosecution ffs!

 

[Dubai Blue]

As I understand it, the DPP led on the Criminal Prosecutions. The PO ran with the Civil Prosecusions

Don't think that's correct, but prepared to hold my hands up if I'm wrong.

 

[mancboy]

Im not sure how the rollout worked but if it was just all put in place in every post office one day and people were told to use it then it was an absolute recipe for disaster as a previous poster has said it should have either been run alongside the older system for a period of time to spot potential errors or a soft rollout should have been done where it was put in place in a select number of random post offices for a period of time before a larger nationwide rollout.

 

[BlueAnorak]

Don't think that's correct, but prepared to hold my hands up if I'm wrong.

No your right I rechecked. Thw DPP still has oversight responsibilities if complaints are made though. And there were a good few of those.

 

[metalblue]

There is no such thing as a civil prosecution ffs!

So what you’re saying is this is a civil prosecution?

 

[BlueAnorak]

There is no such thing as a civil prosecution ffs!

I think I've got that now. :-D
Thanks.

 

[BlueAnorak]

Over 900 convicted - with only 98 convictons quashed so far...
I know the law moves slowly but the PO being in charge of the legal process here really doesn't help one bit.

 

[BringBackSwales]

How the fuck does it take a well made tv programme to push twats like Sunak into action. This was an abundantly clear miscarriage of justice years ago, I fucking knew about it years ago, so what were these politicians doing? Yet suddenly it’s on tv and slimy **** sunak now wants to do something about it. What was he doing before and why wasn’t this acted upon years ago? At least Sunak has an excuse, he was too busy tax dodging, the horrible slimy despicable ****

 

[Blue Mist]

Im not sure how the rollout worked but if it was just all put in place in every post office one day and people were told to use it then it was an absolute recipe for disaster as a previous poster has said it should have either been run alongside the older system for a period of time to spot potential errors or a soft rollout should have been done where it was put in place in a select number of random post offices for a period of time before a larger nationwide rollout.

I mentioned earlier on in the thread that they did a trial run of the system before rolling it out nationwide.
Can you guess what happened during the trial? If you can't pm me.

 

[mancboy]

I mentioned earlier on in the thread that they did a trial run of the system before rolling it out nationwide.
Can you guess what happened during the trial? If you can't pm me.

If its anything like other public service systems ive seen roll out im going to gamble on errors thrown up all over the place which were immediately blamed on user error and assurances given that they would be fixed prior to the main rollout as the contracts had already been signed and then fuck all actually getting done, am i close?

 

[GaudinoMotors]

There is no such thing as a civil prosecution ffs!

Be Civil. Is it a lawsuit?

How does m'learned poster feel the legal system has fared in this sorry saga?
Is it simply a case of doing their job and of upholding the impartial indepency of the judiciary (until of course it suits them not to be, or is opportune not to be)? Could they have done more and at least requested better clarification and investigation - highlighted concerns?

 

[gordondaviesmoustache]

Be Civil. Is it a lawsuit?

How does m'learned poster feel the legal system has fared in this sorry saga?
Is it simply a case of doing their job and of upholding the impartial indepency of the judiciary (until of course it suits them not to be, or is opportune not to be)? Could they have done more and at least requested better clarification and investigation - highlighted concerns?

Every limb of the establishment has horribly failed in this sorry saga, including the judicial system. I

The whole fucking abortion is a tragic metaphor for our times.

 

[denislawsbackheel]

The Times published a list of those responsible for the scandal, and worst of all, the cover up.

Here is a Web archived version of the article that makes interesting reading:

https://archive.ph/S1woq

The ruling class elite - what I refer to as "The Blob" - will pin the blame on a couple of sacrificial lambs to protect the rest, as is there want. This is normally the first action to protect the rest of the blob. As such I kind of have some sympathy for:
1. Paula Vennells — Post Office chief executive, 2012-2019.
2. Angela van den Bogerd — Royal Mail business improvement director
Yes their conduct is shocking and their service to the blob is noted, but sorry you two, you were on the wrong chairs when the music stopped and will be sacrificed to protect the rest of the blob...

But there are many others that must bare a good slice of the responsibility - For those closely involved - in the order called out in the article:
1. Alice Perkins — Post Office chairwoman, 2011-2015.
2. Sir Tim Parker — Post Office chairman, October 2015-2022.
3. Dame Moya Greene — Royal Mail chief executive, 2010-2018
4. Alan Cook — Post Office managing director, 2006-2010
5. David Smith — Post Office managing director, 2010
6. Adam Crozier — Royal Mail chief executive, 2003-2010
7. Michael Keegan — Fujitsu UK chief executive, 2014-2015

Sir Tim Parker chairman of the Post Office from 2015 till he resigned in 2022 also has a role in the National Trust debarcle that has made the lives of many NT volunteers hell. Not that many of you will recognise that as a problem - though it very definately is.

All hail the blob!

No mention of the husband of the current education secretary, Michael Keegan, now working in government who was head of Fujitsu during this debacle?