Mr Bates vs the Post Office

I hate using them as they’ve struck me as rotten for years. I tried to send a mate a programme years back and had to haggle for delivery options. Couriered, next day, signed for… “But you’re not entitled to compensation” etc. It was £3.50. Until I raised my voice, they were refusing to let it go first class standard.

Whilst trying to upsell customers is management orders, it left a sour taste in my mouth.
 
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Don't really do Facebollocks. I just have a spoof account for the local supporters club but you really can't make these tw@ts up. Especially with the timing of it.
 
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Any sentencing options will be more than adequately covered by a perverting the course of justice conviction, the maximum sentence for which is the same as for manslaughter, namely life imprisonment.

Sentencing for convictions for perverting offences tend to reflect the seriousness of the index matter which has been perverted. Covering up a murder carries a much harsher sentence than getting someone to take your points, for example. Anyone convicted of such an offence in relation to this shameful episode, could expect a heavy duty prison sentence, possibly approaching double figures.

In fact the absence of any meaningful sentencing guidelines for such an offence would give any sentencing judge more leeway than for manslaughter, which does have such guidelines.

It will have a much lower evidential threshold than for any unlawful killing offence and can be much more broadly interpreted by juries.

Also, possibly crucially, it can and does relate to perverting the course of civil, as well as criminal justice.

Why make things more complicated and challenging than they need to be?
 
So this case has been going on for years and we have all known about it including this corrupt government . Now it’s been shown on the tv and millions have watched it and have been disgusted how these innocent people have been treated. All of a sudden we have the same MP,s all saying it needs to be resolved as soon as possible, stinks to high heaven Government guilty as fuck.
 
heslops barnet said:
Definitely but there may have been a few who had been stealing?
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What happened to any excess generated by Horizon errors? If the figures were random then surely some would have shown a surplus rather than a deficit. Did the postmasters pocket this surplus or was there something in the Horizon software that only introduced negative figures?
 
East Level 2 said:
What happened to any excess generated by Horizon errors? If the figures were random then surely some would have shown a surplus rather than a deficit. Did the postmasters pocket this surplus or was there something in the Horizon software that only introduced negative figures?
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A good question, but what I believe Horizon was doing was duplicating transactions and as the post masters were not taking money for the additional transactions, that's where there was the cash shortfall
 
Surely the DPP should have noticed a problem with relying on computer evidence for an excess number of PO prosecutions on previous years?
Oh, and guess who was in charge of the DPP at the time of most of the tranches of criminal prosecutions - one Kier Starmer.
That said the BIG problem is the Cover up that will suck in Former Post Office Minister - Ed Davy - Now leader of the Lib Dems. I see he's criticising the Post Office today for feeding him a tissue of lies. Sorry but he was told what issues there were by those who wrote to him and he preferred to believe the Post Office. So whoops! He's a fish on the end of the line trying desperately to get away and not wheeled in.
 
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gordondaviesmoustache said:
Any sentencing options will be more than adequately covered by a perverting the course of justice conviction, the maximum sentence for which is the same as for manslaughter, namely life imprisonment.

Sentencing for convictions for perverting offences tend to reflect the seriousness of the index matter which has been perverted. Covering up a murder carries a much harsher sentence than getting someone to take your points, for example. Anyone convicted of such an offence in relation to this shameful episode, could expect a heavy duty prison sentence, possibly approaching double figures.

In fact the absence of any meaningful sentencing guidelines for such an offence would give any sentencing judge more leeway than for manslaughter, which does have such guidelines.

It will have a much lower evidential threshold than for any unlawful killing offence and can be much more broadly interpreted by juries.

Also, possibly crucially, it can and does relate to perverting the course of civil, as well as criminal justice.

Why make things more complicated and challenging than they need to be?
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I suspect, given their hugely expensive lawyers paid for by the taxpayer, that they have managed to weave plenty of plausible deniability into their actions. Perverting the course of justice presumably has to be shown to be deliberate, and we've seen with the covid inquiry the way that these people are able to answer question in ways to avoid incriminating themselves. A lot of "I don't recall" going on, methinks.
 
I'm With Stupid said:
I suspect, given their hugely expensive lawyers paid for by the taxpayer, that they have managed to weave plenty of plausible deniability into their actions. Perverting the course of justice presumably has to be shown to be deliberate, and we've seen with the covid inquiry the way that these people are able to answer question in ways to avoid incriminating themselves. A lot of "I don't recall" going on, methinks.
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Not too sure about that. The actress who played the CEO said her lines were genuine, taken from emails, meeting minutes etc and were in no way assumed
 
I'm With Stupid said:
I suspect, given their hugely expensive lawyers paid for by the taxpayer, that they have managed to weave plenty of plausible deniability into their actions. Perverting the course of justice presumably has to be shown to be deliberate, and we've seen with the covid inquiry the way that these people are able to answer question in ways to avoid incriminating themselves. A lot of "I don't recall" going on, methinks.
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I don’t think the two proceedings are analogous. The Covid enquiry is inquisitorial where there is no requirement or even capacity for a finding of guilt. It will require a highly nuanced finding at its conclusion.

A criminal trial requires a binary outcome and will be determined by twelve members of the public.

I’m not saying it’s an easy evidential burden to discharge, I’ve previously stated that it most likely isn’t, but if there is sufficient evidence for a jury to possibly draw an inference of guilt and there is a realistic (but not necessarily overwhelming) prospect of conviction then that will be enough for a prosecution(s).

It seems to me that if senior politicians are boldly asserting that the Post Office lied at an institutional level while civil claims were ongoing then the prospect of prosecutions against individuals is a real possibility, despite what may be obstacles to securing convictions.

There’s too much political pressure now for calls for charges, where there is any meaningful evidential basis for so doing, to be ignored.

Whether that’s enough to secure convictions is another matter, but prosecutions for perverting the course of justice appear to provide the most likely route for achieving that.
 
The Times published a list of those responsible for the scandal, and worst of all, the cover up.

Here is a Web archived version of the article that makes interesting reading:

The ruling class elite - what I refer to as "The Blob" - will pin the blame on a couple of sacrificial lambs to protect the rest, as is there want. This is normally the first action to protect the rest of the blob. As such I kind of have some sympathy for:
1. Paula Vennells — Post Office chief executive, 2012-2019.
2. Angela van den Bogerd — Royal Mail business improvement director
Yes their conduct is shocking and their service to the blob is noted, but sorry you two, you were on the wrong chairs when the music stopped and will be sacrificed to protect the rest of the blob...

But there are many others that must bare a good slice of the responsibility - For those closely involved - in the order called out in the article:
1. Alice Perkins — Post Office chairwoman, 2011-2015.
2. Sir Tim Parker — Post Office chairman, October 2015-2022.
3. Dame Moya Greene — Royal Mail chief executive, 2010-2018
4. Alan Cook — Post Office managing director, 2006-2010
5. David Smith — Post Office managing director, 2010
6. Adam Crozier — Royal Mail chief executive, 2003-2010
7. Michael Keegan — Fujitsu UK chief executive, 2014-2015

Sir Tim Parker chairman of the Post Office from 2015 till he resigned in 2022 also has a role in the National Trust debarcle that has made the lives of many NT volunteers hell. Not that many of you will recognise that as a problem - though it very definately is.

All hail the blob!
 
BlueAnorak said:
The Times published a list of those responsible for the scandal, and worst of all, the cover up.

Here is a Web archived version of the article that makes interesting reading:

The ruling class elite - what I refer to as "The Blob" - will pin the blame on a couple of sacrificial lambs to protect the rest, as is there want. This is normally the first action to protect the rest of the blob. As such I kind of have some sympathy for:
1. Paula Vennells — Post Office chief executive, 2012-2019.
2. Angela van den Bogerd — Royal Mail business improvement director
Yes their conduct is shocking and their service to the blob is noted, but sorry you two, you were on the wrong chairs when the music stopped and will be sacrificed to protect the rest of the blob...

But there are many others that must bare a good slice of the responsibility - For those closely involved - in the order called out in the article:
1. Alice Perkins — Post Office chairwoman, 2011-2015.
2. Sir Tim Parker — Post Office chairman, October 2015-2022.
3. Dame Moya Greene — Royal Mail chief executive, 2010-2018
4. Alan Cook — Post Office managing director, 2006-2010
5. David Smith — Post Office managing director, 2010
6. Adam Crozier — Royal Mail chief executive, 2003-2010
7. Michael Keegan — Fujitsu UK chief executive, 2014-2015

Sir Tim Parker chairman of the Post Office from 2015 till he resigned in 2022 also has a role in the National Trust debarcle that has made the lives of many NT volunteers hell. Not that many of you will recognise that as a problem - though it very definately is.

All hail the blob!
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Have no sympathy whatsoever for your number 1. How can you not suspect something is wrong when what looks like a large group of you workers turning criminal coincides with the introduction of new software. Last time I was involved with a rollout of new software it was run in tandem with the old one to spot issues. Yes it meant everything had to be processed twice but it saved a fortune.
 
Watched all four episodes last night. Harrowing and heartbreaking.

I remember it being in the news on and off over the past few years but I’ll hold my hands up and say I had no idea of the extent of the cover up or that people lost their lives.

It makes me so angry that it’s taken a tv drama for the political establishment to actually speak up and move things along for these people.

Well done to ITV as well, it was a brilliant programme with a wonderful cast. Toby Jones is great in pretty much everything he does.

A BAFTA or two on the way no doubt.
 
dickie davies said:
A good question, but what I believe Horizon was doing was duplicating transactions and as the post masters were not taking money for the additional transactions, that's where there was the cash shortfall
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Wonder if the system ever did the opposite also how much of this is down to people loggin in at the other end of the system without the sub post masters knowing and how much is down to bugs or errors in the system
 
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