Russian invasion of Ukraine

hgblue said:
How do people think this war will end? With a total victory for Ukraine? Events on the ground suggest that this is extremely unlikely. So the war goes on and Ukrainians continue to die in large numbers indefinitely? This is totally unsustainable. As some of us were arguing from the start.
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With Putin in power, and the fact that he can't be trusted, this war can only end if...
- Russia is victorious militarily.
- The cost of waging this war is so high to Russia that Putin is forced out of power and someone else takes over who has the capability to negotiate.
There are no other viable alternatives. Do you know of any?
 
Yes, a negotiated settlement. Will involve some painful concessions by the Ukrainian side, but compared to losing a generation of young people this would seem preferable to me. However, if the Ukrainian people want to carry on fighting I respect that and wish them well. Just don't think this war is headed for the happy ending most on here would like to see.
 
hgblue said:
Yes, a negotiated settlement. Will involve some painful concessions by the Ukrainian side, but compared to losing a generation of young people this would seem preferable to me. However, if the Ukrainian people want to carry on fighting I respect that and wish them well. Just don't think this war is headed for the happy ending most on here would like to see.
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Respectfully, I don't think most people expect a happy ending. We are well past the stage now.

But what do you expect of Ukraine, to give up more territory because Putin feels like taking it? How long until he comes further West again? It appears to me, the same people who claimed Russia was never going to invade Ukraine are now claiming that if you give him a bit more land it will keep him happy.

It's obvious what his thoughts on Ukraine are, he stated it very clearly when he announced his 'special military operation', he doesn't believe it should exist. And if it is to exist, it exists under his control. What sort of hope is that for millions of young Ukrainians who desire so much for the freedoms of the West that we take for granted? Do we just throw them to a dictator because he wants it, what cost is this causing the West? We aren't paying in blood, we pay in Military Aid that either directly or indirectly gets spent regardless. So why not give it to the worthy of the most worthy causes? An inspiring democratic nation fighting for it's existance.
 
b6_brum said:
It depends who has the will to last the longest. In reality, if the west had the will to continue supporting an ally, we could bring Russia to it's knees. It's economy is on life support through a war time economy, this will keep it going for a couple of years but is not sustainable long term. It just isn't.

The west's commitment to this war is virtually nothing. The USA would spend more destroying old stock. They don't send them their latest equipment, it's a win win without sending a single soldier to go and do the dirty work. The problem the West has is a lack of resolve, I guess that's natural of living in a democracy. Governments can change and alternative voices exist with a platform, as opposed to filthy dictatorships that murder and imprison everybody against them.

We have paid agents such as Tucker Carlson free to spread filthy dictators lies and misinformation for millions to view, if he was on the other side doing the opposite he'd be in deep Siberia by now.

As long as Ukraine have the desire to fight for their existence, we should back them to the hilt, otherwise History will not judge us favourably.
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Exactly this. If Ukraine want to fight, we should do everything to support them. Ultimately its there choice to negotiate or fight.
 
hgblue said:
Yes, a negotiated settlement. Will involve some painful concessions by the Ukrainian side, but compared to losing a generation of young people this would seem preferable to me. However, if the Ukrainian people want to carry on fighting I respect that and wish them well. Just don't think this war is headed for the happy ending most on here would like to see.
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Europe tried that with Hitler in 1930s, remember how that turned out??
 
hgblue said:
Yes, a negotiated settlement. Will involve some painful concessions by the Ukrainian side
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...and the next time, 3 years down the road, same again, and the same again, rinse and repeat, until there is no Ukraine ? What then, let them have a bit of Poland, Finland ?

People like you are clueless, and forget this started in 2014, when he renaiged on previous agreements, not 2022 when you woke up one morning with a country in Europe being invaded illegally.
 

NOELREPORTS

@NOELreports

Oleksandr Pavlyuk is set to become the new commander of the Ground Forces of the Ukrainian Armed Forces, replacing Oleksandr Syrskyi. Additionally, Anatoliy Barhylevych is expected to be appointed as the head of the General Staff of the Armed Forces. Submissions for their appointments are reportedly being prepared for a presidential decree
The new commander of ground forces in Ukraine
 
hgblue said:
Yes, a negotiated settlement. Will involve some painful concessions by the Ukrainian side, but compared to losing a generation of young people this would seem preferable to me. However, if the Ukrainian people want to carry on fighting I respect that and wish them well. Just don't think this war is headed for the happy ending most on here would like to see.
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There's no happy ending here whatever happens.

Hundreds of thousands of soldiers have died, and tends of thousands of civilians.

Significant parts of Ukraine are in rubble.

What you suggest as a negotiated settlement being "painful" is actually a capitulation to Russian aggression, and condemnation to perpetual oppression to the people surrendered.

*If* the Ukrainians believe that will bring peace to the rest of the country and is a price worth paying, fair enough, their choice.

Given the history of multiple invasions and reneging on agreements from the fascist dictatorship of Russia, I doubt that's an appealing prospect.
 
roubaixtuesday said:
There's no happy ending here whatever happens.

Hundreds of thousands of soldiers have died, and tends of thousands of civilians.

Significant parts of Ukraine are in rubble.

What you suggest as a negotiated settlement being "painful" is actually a capitulation to Russian aggression, and condemnation to perpetual oppression to the people surrendered.

*If* the Ukrainians believe that will bring peace to the rest of the country and is a price worth paying, fair enough, their choice.

Given the history of multiple invasions and reneging on agreements from the fascist dictatorship of Russia, I doubt that's an appealing prospect.
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They aren't going to get an eternal peace.

Would a peace settlement be worth it if Russia was likely to turn around and invade again in 5 years? No.

Ten years. Probably still no.

15-25?

Probably yes. Gives them enough time to rebuild their homes, their infrastructure, their economy, and their military.

Obviously you can't guarantee it. But you can put obstacles in Russia's way as part of the peace deal.

Ukraine are very unlikely to be able to win the war and Putin has a firm grip on power.
 
roubaixtuesday said:
There's no happy ending here whatever happens.

Hundreds of thousands of soldiers have died, and tends of thousands of civilians.

Significant parts of Ukraine are in rubble.

What you suggest as a negotiated settlement being "painful" is actually a capitulation to Russian aggression, and condemnation to perpetual oppression to the people surrendered.

*If* the Ukrainians believe that will bring peace to the rest of the country and is a price worth paying, fair enough, their choice.

Given the history of multiple invasions and reneging on agreements from the fascist dictatorship of Russia, I doubt that's an appealing prospect.
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I just don’t get why anyone would think that negotiating anything with Putin would be worth a wank.

It’s like advocating that the guy who took the money up front to tarmac your drive and who never did the job, build your kitchen extension six months later. Again for money up front.
 
Has T Carson already found the way out of putin's arse?

What a poor farce. Two notorious liars are telling a 2-hour story. WTF?
And MAGA or trump are supposed to listen longer than a tiktok video?

At least now we - and all US voters - know the very truth about peaceful russia being a victim (and never at fault...) and we have learnt that the borders of the year 862 AC are more important than international law...

I also feel bad that we as NATO have started this bloody war.
If I only could live a wonderful life in russia.
 
hgblue said:
Yes, a negotiated settlement. Will involve some painful concessions by the Ukrainian side, but compared to losing a generation of young people this would seem preferable to me. However, if the Ukrainian people want to carry on fighting I respect that and wish them well. Just don't think this war is headed for the happy ending most on here would like to see.
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And I suppose you just do the same in 5 or so years time when Putins advances on the Baltic States??

A bit of land isn't worth dying for after all is it?? And then Poland.

You are indeed Neville Chamberlain the appeaser!
 
St.Pauli support said:
Has T Carson already found the way out of putin's arse?

What a poor farce. Two notorious liars are telling a 2-hour story. WTF?
And MAGA or trump are supposed to listen longer than a tiktok video?

At least now we - and all US voters - know the very truth about peaceful russia being a victim (and never at fault...) and we have learnt that the borders of the year 862 AC are more important than international law...

I also feel bad that we as NATO have started this bloody war.
If I only could live a wonderful life in russia.
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I would revoke his passport. Let him enjoy Putin and Russias freedoms for as long as he wants.
 
gordondaviesmoustache said:
I just don’t get why anyone would think that negotiating anything with Putin would be worth a wank.

It’s like advocating that the guy who took the money up front to tarmac your drive and who never did the job, build your kitchen extension six months later. Again for money up front.
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I think it depends what you mean by "negotiation".

A best case scenario for Ukraine is probably a Russian withdrawal covered by some fig leaves to address Russia's notional concerns (eg protection for Russian languange) which Russia can portray as "denazification achieved".

A ceasefire on current frontline positions and acceding to that in perpetuity is a worst case.

These are very different "negotiations"
 
TinFoilHat said:


The thing is that could be true about Johnson.
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It was certainly news at the time that "peace talks" broke down after Johnson's trip to Ukraine

That doesn't necessarily mean he sabotaged it though. Of course from Russia's side they're going to say that if they believe on what they want, then to their side it seems like sabotage.


Exactly what the propopsed peace agreement actually entailed is another matter altogether, and I don't imagine anyone in the public or media have any real knowledge of the in depth details of that.

I do believe Putin was being somewhat honest in the basics of that though. It was in our media at the time in 2022 that talks broke down after Johnson visited Ukraine. To suggest they broke down means at least they were talking and making some possible headway up until Boris went there.

As to why they broke down, nobody could honestly give you real answer until they see all the documents of the proposed peace agreement. I doubt it was as simple as Johnson rocking up in Ukraine and telling them to sod it and keep fighting, but that's how Putin essentially described it. The more likely scenario is the proposed agreement was heavily in the favour of Russia.

All Putin said was Johnson advised them it was better to keep fighting Russia. Let's say that's true, then why not go into details of why Johnson said that? Or why he thinks he said that? It was strange that he only gave that simple statement. If he believes that to be the case, he must have theories why that he would like to share to make his case.

He's clearly a knowledgeable man with a very good knowledge of history and was able to speak on many topics with clarity, yet he basically shut up shop on some things. No doubt an intelligent man but equally as calculated. He spoke for two hours without really saying a lot in the end.
 
hgblue said:
Yes, a negotiated settlement. Will involve some painful concessions by the Ukrainian side, but compared to losing a generation of young people this would seem preferable to me. However, if the Ukrainian people want to carry on fighting I respect that and wish them well. Just don't think this war is headed for the happy ending most on here would like to see.
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Question not answered.
Putin lies and won't negotiate in good faith.
He has never stuck by an agreement EVER.
 
roubaixtuesday said:
I think it depends what you mean by "negotiation".

A best case scenario for Ukraine is probably a Russian withdrawal covered by some fig leaves to address Russia's notional concerns (eg protection for Russian languange) which Russia can portray as "denazification achieved".

A ceasefire on current frontline positions and acceding to that in perpetuity is a worst case.

These are very different "negotiations"
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But anyone advocating for it now is plainly doing so on the broad basis of the latter, namely keep what you’ve got. There is no other logical option. The notion that Russia are going to give up territory in exchange for a few undertakings around Russian culture is actually insane.
 
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